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Subject: RE: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted

I concur with Lee & Tim on getting the EDXL-HAVE into NIEM NDR before we
place it into the OASIS process.  

Tom Merkle
CapWIN:        www.capwin.org 
Phone:          (301) 614-3720
Cell Phone:   (240) 375-1966
Fax:               (301) 614-0581
e-mail:           tmerkle@capwin.org
6305 Ivy Lane Suite 300
Capital Office Park
Greenbelt, MD 20770

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Grapes [mailto:tgrapes@evotecinc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:16 AM
To: 'Lee Tincher'; 'Rex Brooks'; 'Elysa Jones';
Subject: RE: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted

Hey Rex,

I do understand where you are coming from, but my feeling is that now is
the time to adopt the NDR, before we have a release.  The NDR is
conformant to ISO 11179, and I don't think it would be considered a
substantive change - the structure and definitions are the same.  We
would only be changing the semantics.  It should not break existing
applications since HAVE is only a draft, and should only be used to this
point for pilots and demos.  

I do believe the time is now to incorporate this, but perhaps I don't
fully understand the argument you put forth. As it stands, the TC has
incorporated naming logic not based upon an NDR.  We're simply
recommending adoption of a specific convention that will cure a lot of
headaches down the pike.



-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Tincher [mailto:ltincher@evotecinc.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:02 AM
To: 'Rex Brooks'; 'Tim Grapes'; 'Elysa Jones';
Subject: RE: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted


If we waited until the next version to adopt the NDR wouldn't that put
us in the position of having an immediate major release (v2.0) since I
doubt that it would be backwards compatible from the initial release?

'We the unwilling, led by the unknowing have been doing the difficult
with little for so long that we are now ready to tackle the impossible
with nothing.' -- Local Fire communications reserve volunteer motto

-----Original Message-----
From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:56 AM
To: Tim Grapes; 'Elysa Jones'; emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted

Hi Tim,

I posed my initial response earlier, but I wanted to specifically
address where in the process this should be taken up wrt HAVE.

My own feeling (subjective) is that it should be held back until a
subsequent version, e.g. v1.1. 
or 2.0 because I suspect it will meet the criterion that a substantive
change requiring a new 60-day public review has a threshold or trigger
whereby a substantive change is one that "breaks" existing applications.

Objectively, we literally can't afford to hold this up, or vendors will
produce their own menagerie of proprietary solutions. This is what
happened for the OASIS SOA Reference Model TC (and current Reference
Architecture SC). It has endured and continues to face the proliferation
of ESBs and "SOA Fabrics"  jockeying for the inside track in the
marketplace while we carefully crafted the Reference Model and continue
to work on the Reference Architecture. 
However, because both the model and architecture are largely abstract,
much like we can make the NDR we can, I believe, absorb ESBs and
Fabrics, albeit with a very flexible shoe horn.

So while the comparison is not precise, the effect that ESB vendors have
been running away with the marketplace still applies.

So we will have to attempt to incorporate NDR, crafting it as a
non-breaking, non normative "best practice" in an appendix during and
immediately after the 60-day review IF we have the time--which is to
say, IF we are not swamped with industry comments. We will also need to
include the advice that we expect to incorporate a general-purpose NDR
methodology in the next version of HAVE and EDXL_DE along with all
subsequent members of the EDXL family.

We may be able to do this because what we are doing is establishing a
methodology for NDR, not a controlled vocabulary in itself. If NIEM is
looking for a the greater restriction of its own controlled vocabulary,
which is what we feared early on in Mike Daconta's initial statements,
we would have a greater challenge, and I would have to take the position
that we are required to ensure international applicability over any
specific national systems.

Either way, its a tough pill that it is better to take now than postpone
because it is not going to taste any better, and likely to ferment into
much worse, if we wait.


At 2:57 PM -0500 11/1/06, Tim Grapes wrote:
>I and others on and off the OASIS EM-TC would like to post a 
>recommendation that the National Information Exchange Model (NIEM) 
>Naming and Design Rules (NDR) be adopted and applied to the HAVE 
>committee draft.  My understanding is that, although a consistent 
>convention was used to name the elements, no formal NDR has been 
>followed for HAVE or for Resource Messaging (RM).
>Please note that not adopting the NDR does not prevent use of NIEM to 
>develop exchanges using EDXL standards; however, the difficulty for 
>practitioners may be increased otherwise.  I realize that this feels 
>Federal government-driven, but I don't see a down-side since the 
>particular semantics applied should not negatively impact the 
>International community.
>.         Use HAVE as the starting point to 
>begin applying a published and consistent naming convention across the 
>EDXL standards
>.         Promote reuse and facilitate simpler 
>and more seamless use of NIEM for the
>development of IEPD's and implementation of exchanges using the EDXL 
>.         Provide a straight-forward avenue and 
>mechanism for state and local organizations to comply with grants 
>language which specifies NIEM and EDXL
>We do not feel that the specification should be held up; HAVE should 
>proceed into the 60-day comment period with this and other comments 
>that have been posted.  If adopted by the TC, recommend that the NIEM 
>NDR be adopted for the draft Resource Messaging and subsequent 
>standards, and possibly to the Distribution Element when a successive 
>version is put forth.
>I welcome any comments or feedback.  I will be on the call Thursday at 
>4:45.  Because HAVE is pending committee vote, I don't know where this 
>comment should be formally posted.  Please advise and I will ensure 
>that gets done.
>Tim Grapes
>Evolution Technologies, Inc.
>Office:  (703) 654-6075
>Mobile:  (703) 304-4829
>From: Elysa Jones [mailto:ejones@warningsystems.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:18 AM
>To: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: [emergency] Call for quorum - Thurs 11/2 4:45PM EST
>Dear EM-TC Members,
>We did not have a quorum for our meeting yesterday and we would like to

>get the HAVE moved forward to public comment, as well as review/approve

>the meeting notes for the past few meetings.  We had our meeting which 
>is summarized in the notes that will be uploaded for review but without

>a quorum, we were not able to do any business.  We will plan to have a 
>short meeting on Thursday just before the Msg/Not meeting on Resource 
>Thursday evening at 4:45PM EST.  The EM-TC part of the meeting should 
>only last 15 minutes if everyone can be prepared to vote on HAVE.  If 
>you have any issues on the draft as it is posted or corrections to the 
>meeting notes for the Sept and Oct meetings, please post them to the 
>list as soon as possible.
>Elysa Jones, Chair
>Engineering Program Manager
>Warning Systems, Inc.
>PS - The EIC meeting will be today Nov 1.  You can dial in to 
>800-320-4330 pin # 327547
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Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309

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