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Subject: RE: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted

Yes, Lee,

I understand that, but I suspect it would take less time to do it that way...

It's a question of one versus two 60-day public review periods. If we 
have a 60-day pr now, we will need to have another if we add the NDR 
to HAVE after the pr now. That means it will be at least six to eight 
months in all probability before HAVE gets approved OASIS-wide. If we 
do 1.1 in six months or eight months that is not out of line with 
what we have seen in other circumstances,but tin the meantime we have 
a functional HAVE. However, I have a suggestion to avoid that, too.

This is not going to be an easy or rubber stamp effort, I'm afraid. 
That's why I think the best option is to create an EDXL Reference 
Information Model (EDXL_RIM) that includes a methodology for NDR with 
which recast, but backward compatible applications of existing 
specifications could be built. That way what an implementer does is 
to create translation table from existing terms and definitions to 
the RIM NDR, and then just reference the namespace of the translation 
table in the application. Legacy apps work as is, or get translated. 
The translation fit sthe NDR and are interoperable with sucessive 
versions of the specs.

I prefer that rather than re-engineering the specifications 
themselves. My reply to Tim was trying to address the immediate 
problems in a way that fits with what most people are familiar with 
doing, but my strongest advice is to do the RIM rather than fussing 
with individual specifications at this time. I believe we are going 
to end up having to do both anyway, so I'm not especially inclined to 
argue over it.

I will however, insist on doing the due diligence to create the specs 
correctly, regardless, and that means we are going to have the 
discussion over how to shape the NDR for fitting international as 
well national needs. THAT's the discussion I would prefer to postpone 
until a later time, after we decide how we are going to deal with the 
work in front of us.


At 9:01 AM -0500 11/2/06, Lee Tincher wrote:
>If we waited until the next version to adopt the NDR wouldn't that put us in
>the position of having an immediate major release (v2.0) since I doubt that
>it would be backwards compatible from the initial release?
>'We the unwilling, led by the unknowing have been doing the difficult with
>little for so long that we are now ready to tackle the impossible with
>nothing.' -- Local Fire communications reserve volunteer motto
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:56 AM
>To: Tim Grapes; 'Elysa Jones'; emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: Re: [emergency] HAVE draft comment posted
>Hi Tim,
>I posed my initial response earlier, but I wanted
>to specifically address where in the process this
>should be taken up wrt HAVE.
>My own feeling (subjective) is that it should be
>held back until a subsequent version, e.g. v1.1.
>or 2.0 because I suspect it will meet the
>criterion that a substantive change requiring a
>new 60-day public review has a threshold or
>trigger whereby a substantive change is one that
>"breaks" existing applications.
>Objectively, we literally can't afford to hold
>this up, or vendors will produce their own
>menagerie of proprietary solutions. This is what
>happened for the OASIS SOA Reference Model TC
>(and current Reference Architecture SC). It has
>endured and continues to face the proliferation
>of ESBs and "SOA Fabrics"  jockeying for the
>inside track in the marketplace while we
>carefully crafted the Reference Model and
>continue to work on the Reference Architecture.
>However, because both the model and architecture
>are largely abstract, much like we can make the
>NDR we can, I believe, absorb ESBs and Fabrics,
>albeit with a very flexible shoe horn.
>So while the comparison is not precise, the
>effect that ESB vendors have been running away
>with the marketplace still applies.
>So we will have to attempt to incorporate NDR,
>crafting it as a non-breaking, non normative
>"best practice" in an appendix during and
>immediately after the 60-day review IF we have
>the time--which is to say, IF we are not swamped
>with industry comments. We will also need to
>include the advice that we expect to incorporate
>a general-purpose NDR methodology in the next
>version of HAVE and EDXL_DE along with all
>subsequent members of the EDXL family.
>We may be able to do this because what we are
>doing is establishing a methodology for NDR, not
>a controlled vocabulary in itself. If NIEM is
>looking for a the greater restriction of its own
>controlled vocabulary, which is what we feared
>early on in Mike Daconta's initial statements, we
>would have a greater challenge, and I would have
>to take the position that we are required to
>ensure international applicability over any
>specific national systems.
>Either way, its a tough pill that it is better to
>take now than postpone because it is not going to
>taste any better, and likely to ferment into much
>worse, if we wait.
>At 2:57 PM -0500 11/1/06, Tim Grapes wrote:
>>I and others on and off the OASIS EM-TC would
>>like to post a recommendation that the National
>>Information Exchange Model (NIEM) Naming and
>>Design Rules (NDR) be adopted and applied to the
>>HAVE committee draft.  My understanding is that,
>>although a consistent convention was used to
>>name the elements, no formal NDR has been
>>followed for HAVE or for Resource Messaging (RM).
>>Please note that not adopting the NDR does not
>>prevent use of NIEM to develop exchanges using
>>EDXL standards; however, the difficulty for
>>practitioners may be increased otherwise.  I
>>realize that this feels Federal
>>government-driven, but I don't see a down-side
>>since the particular semantics applied should
>>not negatively impact the International
>>.         Use HAVE as the starting point to
>>begin applying a published and consistent naming
>>convention across the EDXL standards
>>.         Promote reuse and facilitate simpler
>>and more seamless use of NIEM for the
>>development of IEPD's and implementation of
>>exchanges using the EDXL standards.
>>.         Provide a straight-forward avenue and
>>mechanism for state and local organizations to
>>comply with grants language which specifies NIEM
>>and EDXL
>>We do not feel that the specification should be
>>held up; HAVE should proceed into the 60-day
>>comment period with this and other comments that
>>have been posted.  If adopted by the TC,
>>recommend that the NIEM NDR be adopted for the
>>draft Resource Messaging and subsequent
>>standards, and possibly to the Distribution
>>Element when a successive version is put forth.
>>I welcome any comments or feedback.  I will be
>>on the call Thursday at 4:45.  Because HAVE is
>>pending committee vote, I don't know where this
>>comment should be formally posted.  Please
>>advise and I will ensure that gets done.
>>Tim Grapes
>>Evolution Technologies, Inc.
>>Office:  (703) 654-6075
>>Mobile:  (703) 304-4829
>>From: Elysa Jones [mailto:ejones@warningsystems.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:18 AM
>>To: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Subject: [emergency] Call for quorum - Thurs 11/2 4:45PM EST
>>Dear EM-TC Members,
>>We did not have a quorum for our meeting
>>yesterday and we would like to get the HAVE
>>moved forward to public comment, as well as
>>review/approve the meeting notes for the past
>>few meetings.  We had our meeting which is
>>summarized in the notes that will be uploaded
>>for review but without a quorum, we were not
>>able to do any business.  We will plan to have a
>>short meeting on Thursday just before the
>>Msg/Not meeting on Resource Thursday evening at
>>4:45PM EST.  The EM-TC part of the meeting
>>should only last 15 minutes if everyone can be
>>prepared to vote on HAVE.  If you have any
>>issues on the draft as it is posted or
>  >corrections to the meeting notes for the Sept
>>and Oct meetings, please post them to the list
>>as soon as possible.
>>Elysa Jones, Chair
>>Engineering Program Manager
>>Warning Systems, Inc.
>>PS - The EIC meeting will be today Nov 1.  You
>>can dial in to 800-320-4330 pin # 327547
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.20/508 - Release Date: 10/31/2006
>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:NIEM_NDR-0.3.pdf (PDF /<IC>) (0019F2A1)
>Rex Brooks
>President, CEO
>Starbourne Communications Design
>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>Berkeley, CA 94702
>Tel: 510-849-2309

Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309

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