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Subject: RE: [emix] follow-on question to 'green fountain' scenario
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So, I missed the emix meeting, so don't have those notes
yet, but I want If I have local generation, PV ·
All I can measure is active and reactive power
at the meter. ·
I can meter the solar panel, or mix it in with
the house meter. ·
The utility can buy me a separate meter and pay
me some premium price for my solar power, then they get the results certs. ·
They can pay for the solar panel and maintain it
and then I am just leasing them my roof. If I want to use green energy, clearly I get whatever
electrons are in the wire, pushed by the nearest and biggest power sources. If
I have a solar panel on the roof with a crappy inverter, then I get low-quality
green power. But, let’s just talk about what some grid-side service
provider might sell me. They can offer me the “green power” option,
which means they are trading RECs (certs whatever) in the background to make
sure that the number of kWh I purchase is backed up with kWh produced at some
wind/solar/hydro generator somewhere. They might have a RTP for this green
power and communicate with that price the info about where that power came
from, or the serial number on the RECs or something else. But there is no way
to give me only green electrons, and there is no way (I suppose) to even say,
for a given customer, exactly where the power IS coming from. If we pass cert serial numbers around, then we have
traceability to where the power came from (assuming we don’t have
multiple copies of the cert). How do RECs work, and what is the difference from that
with a cert? What are we certifying? We could have a minute by minute meter
history that puts a cert on each minute of power production. E.g., 31.52 kWh in
the past minute (timestamped) with PV installation ID, etc. That becomes a
fungible commodity. Physically that power is used instantaneously by nearby
loads, spread about. But practically, some entity will buy that quantity of
green power and throw the cert in a big bucket (let’s say it is the
utility selling me green power) and make sure that the number of kWh consumed
by all customers on the green power tariff is matched by the number of kWh
certs in the bag. Am I anywhere close to reality? But we still haven’t
discussed the time and price sensitivity. A cert is for a given minute where
there was some specific local wholesale nodal price (or some relevant price). That
31.52 kWh of solar power on peak might be worth $30. The same power from wind
at night might be worth $1. If we want to actually have a positive effect on
CO2, pollution, energy reduction, then we have to buy certs from power produced
on peak when the power it is offsetting is used on peak. And thus we have to have
certs tied to time, with value of the cert tied to the price at the time the
power was delivered. Where is that relative to reality? To where we want to
go? So, you could sell me green power and send me cert IDs to
prove it, but likely you won’t bother sending such info with my price
signal—it’s really unrelated to the real-time price isn’t it?
The price reflects the cost of power (or of greener sourced power), but isn’t
tied to any specific generator. The cert says that some green power, with my
name now on it, was produced at the same time I used some power. If I take Toby’s
example of only running the fountain when the wind is blowing at the wind
generator on the next mountain, then all I have to do is buy certs from that
generator for power generated at the same time the fountain is on. What we need
is a market interaction that allows completing that transaction on the order of
the time the wind starts and stops so that I can know I got the power and run
the fountain pump based on fresh certs. I don’t want to run the fountain
at 2:05pm only to find out that the wind on the next mountain quit at 2:03pm,
or that all the certs from the now diminished wind were already sold to someone
else. So, then, if we envision being able to buy specific certs from specific
generators, we are really talking about a local auction, no? Oh well, too many thoughts… David -----Original Message----- Well, my head hurts now... We've had two kinds of customers in the past: one that
wanted green energy but specifically also that wanted to retire the
associated certificates (altruistic). The other was one that wanted
fungible certificates so that any excess over their target could be resold (mercenary).
With respect to local solar, suspect your points
would be addressed by the state PUC's and implemented by the LDC. It is not
practical to expect local generators (excluding those that are in the professional
generating business) to deal with the complexities of energy
markets. The result is that the "greenness value" is expressed in
local incentives (rebates, tax credits) which essentially replace the concept of
certificates for value or at least duplicates that function. Absent that,
you'd almost have to have a meter that could imbue net metered electrons with the
appropriate value added certificates and communicate that to some central
banker. We actually make meters capable of this and of distinguishing between
dirty and clean local generation, but the cost is beyond that which most
small installations would find feasible. Helpful? Phil Davis -----Original Message----- From: Anne Hendry [mailto:ahendry@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:49 PM To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [emix] follow-on question to 'green fountain'
scenario After today's discussion I wanted to try to get a bit
more clarity on the 'green content source' discussion, so thought I'd throw
out a hopefully simple example. In my area we have quite a bit of local solar. Up
until recently net metering was the predominant method for handling any
excess, although that is moving towards a direct monetary compensation model
and eventually one where all generation is put back to the grid first.
Now, the generator (local home, business) gets certs for that green energy
put back. Once that energy goes back to the pool, though, I don't believe
there is any tracking of how that energy was generated (other than the remaining certs). Are we envisioning
a future where that will change and all sources will be tracked through additional
mechanisms? [It may be the case that even if power does come from a
green source, there is no certificate or tracking because it has not been
'certified', perhaps because there has been no mainstream market established for
it, or the certification process is too onerous.] Even if there is tracking, the certs for the above
example go off into the financial carbon trading world where their validity and
value are manged by a financial mechanism that is a world unto its own, and
the energy takes a different route, back to the grid and then on to someone
else's home or business. So the financial value of the 'greenness' of this energy
has already been used up (by giving certs to the
producer). I would therefore assume the cost of that energy to the consumer would be
lower [than if it included the certs] because it has no certs
included/embedded -- that value has already been realized by someone
else. If the certs had not already been utilized, and came with the energy, then the
price of this energy would be higher because it would include valuable
carbon certs. So, then, going back to the 'green fountain' example, is
that consumer looking for utilized or unutilized 'green value', or does
it care? Is it driven primarily by economic reasons or altruistic
reasons? Another way to pose this, relative to what we're
modeling, might be: if the certs have already been utilized, is there still value
(and data) to be tracked due to the green source -- other than what went
with the value of the certs (this would be, basically, altruistic
value)? This assumes the price is adjusted at the time the certs are removed. I felt at the end of the discussion that we may be
talking about two entirely different types of scenarios/markets. Any comments/corrections welcome. -Anne --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the
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