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Subject: Re: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies


I am a big advocate of including energy communications that supports 
ancillary services (linking wholesale and retail markets) as well. This 
is a large area that's untapped. See some recent work in this area:

- 
http://pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/energysavingsrebates/demandresponse/cs/2009_pacific_gas_and_electric_company_large_commercial_industrial_participating_load_pilot.pdf
- http://drrc.lbl.gov/openadr/pdf/lbnl-2945e.pdf

Thanks,
-Rish

Phil Davis wrote:
> Frances is right of course. John Kueck at Oak Ridge feels there will 
> come a time that the demand side is the total resource for reliability 
> and regulation. Though I'm not sure of the 100% level, there are 
> aspects of ancillary service participation that properly implemented 
> and managed would (I think) be more appealing to commercial buildings 
> than would traditional DR programs. I have been assuming, perhaps 
> wrongly, that our discussions energy communications would include 
> support of ancillary services. Is this correct?
> Thanks!
> Phil
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of 
> *Toby Considine
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2010 3:35 PM
> *To:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Cc:* fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com
> *Subject:* FW: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies
>
> I forwarded this conversation to Frances Cleveland, who is working on 
> electrical standards for storage management (the complicated process 
> we are trying to stay out of). Thee followed back with a an 
> interesting analogy of the more valuable types of response dictated by 
> ramp time, response time, et al.
>
> tc
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "If something is not worth doing, it`s not worth doing well" - Peter 
> Drucker
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Toby Considine
> TC9, Inc
>
> OASIS Technical Advisory Board
> TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
>
> TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop
>
> 	
>
> 	
>
> Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com <mailto:Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu>
> Phone: (919)619-2104
>
> http://www.tcnine.com/
> blog: www.NewDaedalus.com
>
> *From:* Frances Cleveland [mailto:fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2010 3:06 PM
> *To:* Toby.Considine@gmail.com
> *Cc:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* Re: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies
>
> Toby -
>
> Just to add to the mix, I did not see "ancillary services" in this 
> discussion - these are services like var management, frequency 
> deviation mitigation, load following, etc. These are huge issues for 
> utilities, and just like derivatives are often more "valuable" than 
> stocks in the stock market, are often of more value to the utility 
> than just energy.
>
> If I can't send this directly to the emix list, please forward .....
>
> Frances
>
>
> At 11:52 AM 4/26/2010, Toby Considine wrote:
>
> Sharing the conversation that broke out today in EMIX…
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "If something is not worth doing, it`s not worth doing well" - Peter 
> Drucker
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Toby Considine
> TC9, Inc
> OASIS Technical Advisory Board
> TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
> TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop
>
>
> Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com <mailto:Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu>
> Phone: (919)619-2104
> http://www.tcnine.com/
> blog: www.NewDaedalus.com <http://www.newdaedalus.com/>
>
>
> *From:* Ed Cazalet [mailto:ed@cazalet.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2010 2:50 PM
> *To:* 'Phil Davis'; 'David RR Webber (XML)'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com 
> <mailto:Toby.Considine@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:emix@lists.oasis-open.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [emix] Power storage strategies
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for getting an informative debate going.
>
> I assume that you are suggesting that storage can be generically 
> modeled as a device with a MWH capacity, a power ratio for both charge 
> and discharge of say 4 MW per MWH (4 to 1 ratio) and a current state 
> of charge (% of the MWH energy capacity) with some updating of these 
> parameters as necessary.
>
> Further, I assume you are suggesting that this information be used by 
> other parties ( and possibly the owners ) to dispatch the storage. 
> However you have not mentioned how third parties would be charged or 
> contract for the use of the storage.
>
> Keeping with your idea to keep the storage model simple. we would need 
> at least also specify a round trip efficiency of storage devices since 
> this efficiency ( MWH Out / MWH in) can vary between 50% and over 90% 
> for various storage technologies. Additionally, some compressed air 
> energy storage devices (CAES) also require natural gas as an input 
> energy source in addition to electric energy. ( Note: round trip 
> efficiency is also a function of state of charge and rate of charge 
> and discharge, but let's say we ignore that for simplicity.)
>
> A fixed power ratio is also problematic for many storage devices. Many 
> batteries have asymmetric charge and discharge ratios, so that we 
> would need to specify different ratios for charging and discharging. 
> Additionally, many batteries are able to charge or discharge at high 
> rates for short time periods or when they are not near full or not 
> near empty and then at much lower rates on a sustained basis.
>
> Another critical parameter is response ramp rate. Some devices such as 
> batteries and flywheels have an almost instant response whereas pumped 
> hydro and CAES have a much slower response, limiting their value for 
> frequency regulation.
>
> Battery life is also an issue. A battery typically might be able to 
> discharge a fixed number of MWH over its life depending somewhat on 
> how charging and discharging is done. So charging and discharge for 
> small economic benefit must be avoided to save the battery for 
> situations where such use has high value.
>
> What information we provide about storage also depends on what side of 
> the plane of control (energy services interface) we might be on. On 
> the storage device side of the interface, the physical models that you 
> suggest may be useful, however the need to over simplify is less.
>
> On the inter domain side of the interface communicating even a 
> simplified storage model to other parties and then figuring out how to 
> dispatch that storage in coordination with generation and load is 
> challenging. US ISOs are currently working on tariffs and software to 
> allow limited energy devices such as flywheels and batteries with 15 
> to 30 min of storage to participate in frequency regulation markets. 
> It is a significant software and market design challenge to recognize 
> the limitations of storage (which vary by device type) in comparison 
> to generation while at the same time given storage the benefit to the 
> system of the much faster response of storage in providing regulation 
> services. And most have not yet fully implemented the economic 
> dispatch of deeper storage devices into their economic dispatch and 
> locational pricing models.
>
> If avoiding over complication by engineers and striving for simplicity 
> is a goal, then I recommend the pure simplicity of Transactional 
> Energy outside of the plane of control of specific devices. What is 
> done inside the plane of control is another matter, where the 
> specifics of each device are much easier to accommodate.
>
> With Transactional Energy a storage owner can make or accept an offer 
> to buy MWH at a given rate and at given low price at night or when the 
> wind is blowing hard. The amount and price will depend on many factors 
> such those we have discussed above. The storage owner can also make or 
> accept an offer to sell energy at a higher price in the afternoon or 
> when the wind is not blowing. A party could perhaps simultaneously 
> enter into a transaction to sell in the morning and buy in the 
> afternoon from the storage owner. This is real simplicity and it is 
> the way we buy and sell almost everything else in our life..
>
> Perhaps as both an economist and an engineer, I can revise your 
> statement " Never under estimate an engineer's ability to add complexity!
> to say, "Never underestimate the ability of an economist's market to 
> make simple what an engineer can make complex!"
>
> Ed
>
>
> Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
> 101 First Street, Suite 552
> Los Altos, CA 94022
> 650-949-5274
> cell: 408-621-2772
> ed@cazalet.com <mailto:ed@cazalet.com>
> www.cazalet.com <http://www.cazalet.com/>
>
> *From:* Phil Davis [mailto:pddcoo@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2010 8:27 AM
> *To:* 'David RR Webber (XML)'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com 
> <mailto:Toby.Considine@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:emix@lists.oasis-open.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [emix] Power storage strategies
>
> Actually, GE announced such a system last week and is hiring 400 
> people in Atlanta to staff the new business. It's a substation level 
> product. Also, I have spoken personally with people at Hitachi and 
> Samsung who are testing a 1 MW battery. Such a battery from another 
> vendor is in test operation behind PJM's main offices. So local here 
> takes on a new meaning depending on whether it is truly behind the 
> customer meter, or behind the distribution grid meters (substations 
> and the like), or on a transmission system. Theoretically, batteries 
> of this size could replace generators used for voltage or frequency 
> support.
>
> Phil Davis
>
> *From:* David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2010 10:58 AM
> *To:* Toby.Considine@gmail.com
> *Cc:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* [emix] Power storage strategies
> Toby,
>
> It occurs to me that local storage can potentially play a role here - 
> depending on its efficiency of course. One can anticipate that future 
> technology will offer higher % there - especially if market forces 
> drive that equation.
>
> Therefore - a future system could offset power surges by drawing on 
> locally stored resources that were captured during off-peak or excess 
> capacity. In fact such a system may notify suppliers that they can 
> "push" excess power to local storage at some pre-determined cost point 
> - and of course also need to indicate that the storage facility is at 
> a certain % level, or if empty - accept units at a higher cost rate.
>
> DW
>
>
>
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>
> ******************************************
> * *Frances M. Cleveland *
> * */Xanthus Consulting International
> /** 369 Fairview Ave
> * Boulder Creek, CA 95006
> * Tel: (831) 338-3175
> * Cell: (831) 229-1043
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-- 
Rish Ghatikar
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]

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