OASIS Mailing List ArchivesView the OASIS mailing list archive below
or browse/search using MarkMail.

 


Help: OASIS Mailing Lists Help | MarkMail Help

emix message

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]


Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies


Gale,

 

If I am managing a building with storage,  or I am the operating a  fleet of batteries I will need to know the capabilities of the batteries I have under my control, how their performance has degraded,  current max charge rate and discharge rate, round trip efficiency, current temperature, cost of cycling, and much more.  A discovery mechanism as you suggest can be useful to me. 

 

However, I can offer to buy and sell energy to other parties using the storage by making offers to accept energy in one set of time intervals and return it in another set of intervals for a price.  It is up to me to manage the state of charge of the batteries, the temperature, and the battery cycling by the offers I make or accept with counterparties.  The interface with the customer can be called the 'plane of control' or Energy Services Interface' .

 

As you say the question of who is authorized to use or control the storage is related to the plane of control of the device.  The idea behind Transactional Energy is to push the control as close as possible to the device and then use priced offers and transactions to interact with other systems including markets.  This simplifies and standardizes the interfaces among the systems and hides the complexity of the devices behind the control interface.  The buyers and sellers don't need to know if the building is providing storage services, by making ice, shifting load, using batteries, or local generation.

 

Ed

 

Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.

101 First Street, Suite 552

Los Altos, CA 94022

650-949-5274

cell: 408-621-2772

ed@cazalet.com

www.cazalet.com

 

From: Horst, Gale [mailto:ghorst@epri.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:21 PM
To: Ed Cazalet; David RR Webber (XML)
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

Ed,

 

I’m not sure I fully understand the follow up question abut the plane of control.  Perhaps an example will do.  If I have a storage battery of a given capacity and other characteristics, we should consider the questions:

 

-        What if the battery capabilities degrade over time?  A year from now it would NOT be able to provide the services it is assumed to be capable of because of a fixed commissioning mechanism.  Some dynamic operational parameters or discovery parameters that could be re-involked would solve this.

-        What if the battery is upgraded / replaced or another electricity storage mechanism is put in it’s place?  Until the up-stream system knows this, it would be under-utilized.  Again, dynamic operational parameters or discovery parameters along with an up-stream system capable of calculating the new parameters into the system operational algorithm will make this type of change a simple everyday process accommodated by design.

-        Perhaps the ownership and plane of control is a different but related question about who is authorized to utilize the services of the storage device?  In my thinking this could be different for every system depending on the localization and abstraction of the architecture.

 

Not sure if I answered the question….

Gale

 

 

Gale R. Horst

Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI)
942 Corridor Park Blvd.
Knoxville, TN 37932
Office: 865-218-8078
Cell:   865-368-2603

ghorst@epri.com


From: Ed Cazalet [mailto:ed@cazalet.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 11:34 AM
To: Horst, Gale; 'David RR Webber (XML)'
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

Gale,

 

I have added your statement in your recent email to the power storage strategies thread below.

 

You said:

 

I missed the call/discussion this week.  But wanted to note that the system intelligence must be able to self discover and modify in some fashion as what David Webber described.  When dealing with resources that can either degrade or be upgraded/enhanced over time, we have to have an automatic adjusting mechanism which is very similar to a discovery mechanism.  Otherwise the system resources will either become underutilized or over committed over time.

 

 

Are you advocating a discovery mechanism (1) within the plane of control / single ownership boundary or (2) more globally in place of loose coupling, market-based interactions outside the owner's boundary?

 

Ed

 

Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.

101 First Street, Suite 552

Los Altos, CA 94022

650-949-5274

cell: 408-621-2772

ed@cazalet.com

www.cazalet.com

 

From: Holmberg, David [mailto:david.holmberg@nist.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 1:31 PM
To: David RR Webber (XML); Ed Cazalet
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com; 'Phil Davis'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Considine,Toby (Campus Services IT)'
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

I would add to that—even in the local scenario (i.e., within single ownership boundary) a market based model can make sense. I still need some value signal to determine balance of load, storage, and generation. Price and markets allow for more distributed and simple control. Of course, once we look at interactions with entities outside the owner’s boundary (call it the ESI), we want loose coupling, market-based interactions.

 

Thanks for a great discussion,
David

 

From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 4:04 PM
To: Ed Cazalet
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com; 'Phil Davis'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Considine,Toby (Campus Services IT)'
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

Ed,

 

Yikes!!! I was not expecting that answer!  I just fell into a time vortex back ten years to beginning of ebXML work.

 

My scenario was micro-economy local scenario - yours is macro economy - eMarketplace model.  

 

Obviously infinite permutations of these once the supporting infrastructure is there.

 

Very cool.  I like it!

 

Thanks, DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies
From: "Ed Cazalet" <ed@cazalet.com>
Date: Tue, April 27, 2010 3:25 pm
To: "'David RR Webber (XML)'" <david@drrw.info>,
"'Considine,Toby (Campus Services IT)'" <Toby.Considine@unc.edu>
Cc: <fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com>, "'Phil Davis'" <pddcoo@gmail.com>,
<Toby.Considine@gmail.com>, <emix@lists.oasis-open.org>

To continue this excellent discussion.

 

First, for the benefit of Francis below is a link to White Paper on Transactional Energy that, in part, deals with ancillary services in a way that I think levels the field between generation, storage and loads as providers of ancillary services.  The idea is to facilitate energy transactions on shorter intervals including 4-second intervals for frequency regulation.

 

Download Document:  

 

 

With respect to David's quest for simplicity, I think we are closer than it might seem.

 

 

David wrote (italics) :

 

So my real time scenario would run something like this:

 

1) Power source queries grid for status of existing available storage devices with surplus capacity

 

2) From responses and my available power - I commit with a couple of them to push power to them

 

   - to determine this I just need ROM calculations that tell me they can absorb the power at the rate I'm generating it.

   - their availability should be immediate, or time when to commence charging

   - indicate status update refresh period for 20% change in stored power or full - depending on anticipated storage rate - this you can calculate - either from history of previous service to that device - or device itself can give you estimate - if you are off by a % it won't be a big deal.

 

3) Commence power distribution

 

4) Receive regular status updates from devices of their new storage level and remaining capacity.

 

5) Compute decision - continue power supply or loop back to 1)

 

6) If no storage devices available - then scale back power generation - until receive storage notification from device available.

 

 

My revision.

1)  Power source queries storage providers or brokers for quotes to store (buy) 25 MW per hour from 2 am to 5 am ( 100 MWh)

 

2) Generator accepts the best quote of $25 per MWh.

 

3) Generator requests quote to store another 100 MWh for the same hours.

 

4) Storage providers are full and provide no further quotes.

 

5) Generator scales back generation to store only 100 MWh.

 

Note your example talked about where the power was stored and not what the generator got back ( money or energy) and when.  My example assumes the generator gets money for the stored energy.

 

Perhaps a better transaction with storage is as follows:  Generator requests a quote for storing 100 MWh from 2 am to 6 am and drawing 80 MWh from 2 pm to 6 pm, ( accounting for a rough 80% round trip storage efficiency).

The storage provider might quote $50 per MWh stored for this service.  

 

Ed

 

Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.

101 First Street, Suite 552

Los Altos, CA 94022

650-949-5274

cell: 408-621-2772

 

From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Considine,Toby (Campus Services IT)
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com; Phil Davis; Toby.Considine@gmail.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

All,

 

I'm still urging for keeping this really simple!

 

From the perspective of the supplier for the surplus power to push to the storage device - how much precision do you really need!?!?  Frankly I really don't need to know much about the device beyond how much capacity to a ROM (Rough Order of Magnitude).  Why over engineer this - if you can use simple tracking messages to see how you are progressing?  Remember when a 5Mb hard drive was a big deal?!  Expect market to drive demand for low cost buckets of storage in future...

 

So my real time scenario would run something like this:

 

1) Power source queries grid for status of existing available storage devices with surplus capacity

 

2) From responses and my available power - I commit with a couple of them to push power to them

 

   - to determine this I just need ROM calculations that tell me they can absorb the power at the rate I'm generating it.

   - their availability should be immediate, or time when to commence charging

   - indicate status update refresh period for 20% change in stored power or full - depending on anticipated storage rate - this you can calculate - either from history of previous service to that device - or device itself can give you estimate - if you are off by a % it won't be a big deal.

 

3) Commence power distribution

 

4) Receive regular status updates from devices of their new storage level and remaining capacity.

 

5) Compute decision - continue power supply or loop back to 1)

 

6) If no storage devices available - then scale back power generation - until receive storage notification from device available.

 

What I would anticipate is that scenario 6) is really about always having enough storage capacity available to balance demand.  

 

From our XML perspective - so long as our simple message designs contain enough information to drive the decision making - we don't need more.  E.g. we want minimalistic message design.  People will always think of more and more exotic information that can be added - we want to strongly resist that - and require ONLY the information needed to drive a working process - nothing more.  Remember - the messages do NOT need to contain information that can be obtained elsewhere.  Otherwise you end up with a standard that is extremely tough to implement - and then even worse to have consistent interoperability across vendors.  Plus break the messaging down into small discreet purposes.  For example - I do NOT need to send device profile but once - first time device is available.

 

DW

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies
From: "Considine, Toby (Campus Services IT)" <Toby.Considine@unc.edu>
Date: Tue, April 27, 2010 9:44 am
To: Phil Davis <pddcoo@gmail.com>, "Toby.Considine@gmail.com"
<Toby.Considine@gmail.com>, "emix@lists.oasis-open.org"
<emix@lists.oasis-open.org>
Cc: "fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com" <fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com>

Well, I think you are correct.

 

The discussion of the performance attributes or an offering that we skated around last month are really about ancillary services….

 

Time to respond after request?

Ramp time after response?

Minimum response

Maximum response

Maximum sustained response (define sustained)

Cycle time…

 

These are all aspects of being able to fit DR to ancillary markets, not just to “traditional” DR. As most of them are some sort of “meet or exceed” expectations, the same DR could be offered to different markets. Alternately, the building owner could easily see how system augmentation to improve a performance metric would allow the building to play in a more lucrative market…

 

tc

 

 


"If flies are allowed to vote, how meaningful would a poll on what to have for dinner be, and what would be on the menu?" -  Unknown


Toby Considine

Chair, OASIS oBIX Technical Committee
Co-Chair, OASIS Technical Advisory Board
Facilities Technology Office
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC

  

Email: Toby.Considine@ unc.edu
Phone: (919)962-9073

blog: www.NewDaedalus.com

 

 

From: Phil Davis [mailto:pddcoo@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:10 PM
To: Toby.Considine@gmail.com; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com
Subject: RE: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

Frances is right of course.  John Kueck at Oak Ridge feels there will come a time that the demand side is the total resource for reliability and regulation.  Though I'm not sure of the 100% level, there are aspects of ancillary service participation that properly implemented and managed would (I think) be more appealing to commercial buildings than would traditional  DR programs.  I have been assuming, perhaps wrongly, that our discussions energy communications would include support of ancillary services.  Is this correct?

 

Thanks!

 

Phil

 


From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Toby Considine
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 3:35 PM
To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc: fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com
Subject: FW: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

I forwarded this conversation to Frances Cleveland, who is working on electrical standards for storage management (the complicated process we are trying to stay out of). Thee followed back with a an interesting analogy of the more valuable types of response dictated by ramp time, response time, et al.

 

tc


"If something is not worth doing, it`s not worth doing well" - Peter Drucker


Toby Considine
TC9, Inc

OASIS Technical Advisory Board
TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar

TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

  

Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Phone: (919)619-2104

 

 

From: Frances Cleveland [mailto:fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 3:06 PM
To: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Cc: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: FW: [emix] Power storage strategies

 

Toby -

Just to add to the mix, I did not see "ancillary services" in this discussion - these are services like var management, frequency deviation mitigation, load following, etc. These are huge issues for utilities, and just like derivatives are often more "valuable" than stocks in the stock market, are often of more value to the utility than just energy.

If I can't send this directly to the emix list, please forward .....

Frances


At 11:52 AM 4/26/2010, Toby Considine wrote:

Sharing the conversation that broke out today in EMIX…
 


"If something is not worth doing, it`s not worth doing well" - Peter Drucker


Toby Considine
TC9, Inc
OASIS Technical Advisory Board
TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

 
Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Phone: (919)619-2104
http://www.tcnine.com/
blog: www.NewDaedalus.com
 
 
From: Ed Cazalet [
mailto:ed@cazalet.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 2:50 PM
To: 'Phil Davis'; 'David RR Webber (XML)'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Cc: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [emix] Power storage strategies
 
David,
 
Thanks for getting an informative debate going.
 
I assume that you are suggesting that storage can be generically modeled as a device with a MWH capacity, a power ratio for both charge and discharge of say 4 MW per MWH (4 to 1 ratio) and a current state of charge (% of the MWH energy capacity) with some updating of these parameters as necessary.
 
Further, I assume  you are suggesting that this information be used by other parties ( and possibly the owners )  to dispatch the storage.  However you have not mentioned how third parties would be charged or contract for the use of the storage.
 
Keeping with your idea to keep the storage model simple. we would need at least also specify a round trip efficiency of storage devices since this efficiency ( MWH Out / MWH in) can vary between 50% and over 90% for various storage technologies.  Additionally, some compressed air energy storage devices (CAES) also require natural gas as an input energy source in addition to electric energy. ( Note: round trip efficiency is also a function of state of charge and rate of charge and discharge, but let's say we ignore that for simplicity.)
 
A fixed power ratio is also problematic for many storage devices.  Many batteries have asymmetric charge and discharge ratios, so that we would need to specify different ratios for charging and discharging.  Additionally, many batteries are able to charge or discharge at high rates for short time periods or when they are not near full or not near empty and then at much lower rates on a sustained basis.
 
Another critical parameter is response ramp rate.  Some devices such as batteries and flywheels have an almost instant response whereas pumped hydro and CAES have a much slower response, limiting their value for frequency regulation.
 
Battery life is also an issue.  A battery typically might be able to discharge a fixed number of MWH over its life depending somewhat on how charging and discharging is done.  So charging and discharge for small economic benefit must be avoided to save the battery for situations where such use has high value.
 
What information we provide about storage also depends on what side of the plane of control (energy services interface) we might be on.  On the storage device side of the interface, the physical models that you suggest may be useful, however the need to over simplify is less.
 
On the inter domain side of the interface communicating even a simplified storage model to other parties and then figuring out how to dispatch that storage in coordination with generation and load is challenging.  US ISOs are currently working on tariffs and software to allow limited energy devices such as flywheels and batteries with 15 to 30 min of storage to participate in frequency regulation markets.  It is a significant software and market design challenge to recognize the limitations of storage (which vary by device type) in comparison to generation while at the same time given storage the benefit to the system of the much faster response of storage in providing regulation services.  And most have not yet fully implemented the economic dispatch of deeper storage devices into their economic dispatch and locational pricing models.
 
If avoiding over complication by engineers and striving for simplicity is a goal, then I recommend the pure simplicity of Transactional Energy outside of the plane of control of specific devices.  What is done inside the plane of control is another matter, where the specifics of each device are much easier to accommodate.
 
With Transactional Energy a storage owner can make or accept an offer to buy MWH at a given rate and at given low price at night or when the wind is blowing hard.  The amount and price will depend on many factors such those we have discussed above.  The storage owner can also make or accept an offer to sell energy at a higher price in the afternoon or when the wind is not blowing.  A party could perhaps simultaneously enter into a transaction to sell in the morning and buy in the afternoon from the storage owner.  This is real simplicity and it is the way we buy and sell almost everything else in our life..
 
Perhaps as both an economist and an engineer,  I can revise your statement " Never under estimate an engineer's ability to add complexity!
to say, "Never underestimate the ability of an economist's market to make simple what an engineer can make complex!"
 
Ed
 
 
Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
101 First Street, Suite 552
Los Altos, CA 94022
650-949-5274
cell: 408-621-2772
ed@cazalet.com
www.cazalet.com
 
From: Phil Davis [
mailto:pddcoo@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:27 AM
To: 'David RR Webber (XML)'; Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Cc: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [emix] Power storage strategies
 
Actually, GE announced such a system last week and is hiring 400 people in Atlanta to staff the new business. It's a substation level product.  Also, I have spoken personally with people at Hitachi and Samsung who are testing a 1 MW battery.  Such a battery from another vendor is in test operation behind PJM's main offices. So local here takes on a new meaning depending on whether it is truly behind the customer meter, or behind the distribution grid meters (substations and the like), or on a transmission system.  Theoretically, batteries of this size could replace generators used for voltage or frequency support.
 
Phil Davis
 

 

From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:58 AM
To: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Cc: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [emix] Power storage strategies
Toby,
 
It occurs to me that local storage can potentially play a role here - depending on its efficiency of course.  One can anticipate that future technology will offer higher % there - especially if market forces drive that equation.
 
Therefore - a future system could offset power surges by drawing on locally stored resources that were captured during off-peak or excess capacity.  In fact such a system may notify suppliers that they can "push" excess power to local storage at some pre-determined cost point - and of course also need to indicate that the storage facility is at a certain % level, or if empty - accept units at a higher cost rate.
 
DW
 
 

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
________________________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php

 



******************************************
*     Frances M. Cleveland  
*   
Xanthus Consulting International
*     369 Fairview Ave
*     Boulder Creek, CA 95006
*     Tel:  (831) 338-3175
*     Cell: (831) 229-1043
*     fcleve@xanthus-consulting.com
*     www.xanthus-consulting.com
******************************************


________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
________________________________________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php



[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]