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Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Thinking about Models for Demand Response Interactions
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I would agree that, in general, the
actors do not include appliances (residences, typically) and end
devices/equipment (commercial, industrial, typically). The building side actors are the ESI,
which then integrates to the How the We can certainly provide guidance on
best practices but, the building is a black box, with inputs and outputs. Those
inputs should not include direct control of end devices, at least for
commercial and industrial customers. PHEVs are another discussion, and I am
not an SME on that topic, so I will reserve comment on that topic for someone
who has more expertise. Regards,
Sharon E. Dinges, CEM l
System Applications Engineer - Controls l Desk: 651.407.4244
l cell: 651.324.2377
l sdinges@trane.com P Please consider the environment before printing
this email. From: Michel Kohanim
[mailto:michel@universal-devices.com] I understand your reluctance but I never
intended the actors to include appliances/end devices. On the building side the
actors are the ESI and the ESI manager (or building manager). In your statements, you had included
“Financial Markets” and “Long running Processes” both
of which go well beyond the client/server paradigm of Utility to ESI
interactions. For those, we need to define actors and contracts. With kind regards, ******************************** Michel Kohanim, C.E.O Universal Devices, Inc. (p) 818.631.0333 (f) 818.708.0755 http://www.universal-devices.com ******************************** From: Considine, Toby
(Campus Services IT) [mailto:Toby.Considine@unc.edu] I am both happy and reluctant to start
the actor discussion… In a pure price discussion, the Actor is
always the building. And the building responds how it responds. In a contracted performance scenario,
more in line with today’s practice if not tomorrow’s, I am reaching
for hints to encourage energy storage. But does Energy Storage engagement mean: -
Fully charge the
ICE Energy units? -
Overcool the
buildings so you can rely on intrinsic thermal mass? -
Now you know when
to charge your car? -
Schedule your
industrial processes to miss the peak? Do we really need to define all the
actors? Similar hints may have more complex
responses for the autonomous agent during peak times, much as the marathoner
decides whether to drink more water based upon a combination of how close to
the front of the pack and how much distance is left. Personifying the premises equipment: -
If my instructions
are to always keep an hour of energy on hand, I may realize that charging
during the expensive now is required to make it through the more expensive
soon, and meet my QOS -
I have to drive a
couple miles to choir practice at 8:00. It is 5:00. Should I wait for a double
price quick-charge in two hours or start slow charging now? -
Should I prepare
the office for occupants (takes two hours)starting at 6:30 or should I grab the
great prices available at 3:30 this morning and maintain… My preference is that the Actors are
useful for us to understand how buildings might respond, but are not part of
the interface definition. tc "A man should never be ashamed to
own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying ... that he is wiser
today than yesterday." -- Jonathan Swift
From: Michel Kohanim [mailto:michel@universal-devices.com]
HI Toby, Excellent starting points for
discussion. I think that almost all these high level statements do also need
“actors” attached to them. For instance, which actors are going to
be interested in “Price will be more expensive tomorrow afternoon”? With kind regards, ******************************** Michel Kohanim, C.E.O Universal Devices, Inc. (p) 818.631.0333 (f) 818.708.0755 http://www.universal-devices.com ******************************** From: Considine, Toby
(Campus Services IT) [mailto:Toby.Considine@unc.edu] Models
for Demand Response (DR) Questions
to tease out conversations on the correct interaction patterns for Energy
Interoperation Heard
on the street: 1) There
are three kinds of DR: a.
Pure Price Information b.
Price and Contract Invocation (You
remember that agreement we had to turn off the turboencabulator? Well do it!) c.
Curtailment (The grid is going
down. Its non negotiable that you…) 2) Price
and Product Description? That’s just Terms and Conditions 3) Financial
markets are based around the multi-legged product, i.e., a market that includes
more than one product in the sale, and the transaction is for all or nothing.
For energy, this might mean a.
Electricity product sold with
matching carbon credits to enable clean pricing decisions b.
Green credits stripped from one
energy source and sold as part of another transaction c.
Risk and reliability are just line
items, separately priceable. 4) Even
in a pure price world, we are going to need price predictions for DR and
storage to work. a.
“Energy will be more
expensive tomorrow afternoon” b.
Cheap Energy will be available
after 9:30 for the next 11 hours. 5) For
industry, long running process require long running energy commitments a.
I want to buy this suite of
products, x KW per interval for 15 consecutive intervals before I stat the
process. b.
For bids, I will accept all of the
intervals or none c.
Balancing an early morning production
run and an evening production run for two different factories may result in
custom pricing in a single market/locale When
I am thinking about the model for DR, and the model for Pricing/Product we plan
to include in DR, I think about how to optimize for all of the above
statements. I think about simple data models that can be shared with small
devices. I think of complex models to interact with industrial processes. I
think of hiding the distinctions between DER, Storage, and DR. What
is the right way to indicate price commitments over time? A series of
intervals? A price curve? How
do I bid an energy use curve? What if I offer back a curve that is cheaper on 6
intervals but more expensive on one? Can
the consumer submit 4 usage curves for bids, and accept the single one that
best serves the needs of the [factory]? How do we transact those offers / bids
/ deals? What
can we learn about how to do this consistent with the financial model of the
“multi-legged deal” "When
one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully
upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us."
-- Alexander Graham Bell
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