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Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Observations from the Appliance workshop



I am in total agreement with you. Further to your point, how would you configure all these isolated devices to do what you want? Would you go to each individual device and set them up individually? What if you are not home? Does this then mean that each device/appliance should have a user interface? Should all be schedule aware? Should they be able to communicate amongst one another? If so, what is the minimum set of communications constructs?


When EISA talks about Zero Net, one has to also consider alternate sources of energy and thus it would be quite a daunting task to have independent devices act in unison (and based on customer preferences) to achieve such goals.


With kind regards,



Michel Kohanim, C.E.O

Universal Devices, Inc.


(p) 818.631.0333

(f)  818.436.0702




From: Larry Lackey [mailto:llackey@tibco.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:57 PM
To: Holmberg, David; b2g_interop@nist.gov; energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Observations from the Appliance workshop




Thanks for the observations. For fun, let’s suppose you have several of the items mentioned below: AC, pool pump, dryer, hot water, and oven, and some friends are coming over for dinner. You might say:

  • The cake must finish cooking.
  • I must get my clothes dry in time
  • I’ll take a cold shower
  • The house should be cool when they arrive
  • And nobody will be swimming


Seems to me hard for any automated system to do, let alone an isolated appliance with limited computational abilities.


But if I had a home EMS, I could tell the EMS provided the appliances used U-SNAP or another method of communication to the EMS to receive instructions rather acting in ignorance.









From: Holmberg, David [mailto:david.holmberg@nist.gov]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:35 PM
To: b2g_interop@nist.gov; 'energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org'
Subject: [energyinterop] Observations from the Appliance workshop




I attended the EPRI “DR-Ready Appliance Workshop” yesterday in Knoxville, and the discussion ranged around appliance communications and action for demand response.


Basic agreement on what “smart grid ready” means:

·         Can shed

·         Can shift

·         Can communicate

·         Can understand SEP (or, as I observed, some standard data syntax and semantics and transport)—EPRI and U-SNAP are pushing for a standard connector that would allow plugging in an external comms chip. But you still need the app layer.

·         Security


Other observations:

·         Of course, how you accomplish the above for specific device classes (in different regions, see below) might need some definition when it comes time to do compliance testing. And what kind of signal are you going to feed an appliance to prove it can shed/shift, and how much? Maybe you need a standard forward price curve representative of different kinds of typical peaks. Maybe you need a standard forward mode signal, similar to what the DRAS feeds to the Simple Client in OpenADR.

·         Another model that was advocated (not by the appliance manufacturers nor by me) is having more/most of the intelligence at some EMS and passing a simpler signal to the appliance. To me, this requires communications from the appliance to the EMS (at least a standard energy profile) plus it requires a standard EMS.

·         I realized that there are perhaps limits on how universal appliances can be. DR programs have very real differences in different utility territories due to very real weather and regulatory differences. AC is all that matters in Phoenix (besides turning off pool pumps)—hot water is not an issue because water comes into the house hot. That won’t be the case in some other places. This came up relative to the question of whether appliance loads really matter. But a dryer and oven draw more power than the AC. And a refrigerator only draws 70W on average, but I have 3 and they run 24/7. So, how much does the regionality issue affect energy management algorithms for appliances? A rep from Daikin says they ship products that can go anywhere, just need the right software update to get tuned control algorithms.

·         Appliance manufacturers want to hear what it is worth to the grid. I can give you 5kW for 15 min, 2kW for an hour, 1 kW for 8 hours. What’s it worth to you? The appliance manufacturers haven’t gotten this data yet.


David Holmberg

NIST Building and Fire Research Lab



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