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Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products

Sorry, should have replied all.


It seems unlikely to have a single market that sells gas as well as DC and AC electric services.


I think what we are envisioning is that the distribution utility (or some connected third party) runs an AC electricity market. Any prosumer could buy/sell various electric products (hourly energy, 5 minute energy, perhaps 4-sec regulation) and the market operator has access to utility meter data to settle accounts with the local distribution utility (that is, the ex-poste transaction is between the meter account holder and the distribution utility). There are no contracts like I have now with a generation provider, rather, that gets subsumed into the micro-contracts on the market. The market operator settles with the various generation providers and consumers.


It gets more complicated (to me at least, help requested to understand) when we consider breaking the market into distribution phases (A, B, C) and local micro-markets that are location based (feeder sections or service transformer level). This may be similar to how a DC microgrid would connect into a larger AC feeder.


Are we sure that a microgrid marketplace might not sell an electricity product and a gas product?




From: Considine, Toby <Toby.Considine@unc.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 6:01 AM
To: Holmberg, David G. (Fed) <david.holmberg@nist.gov>
Subject: Re: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products


That's how I see it, so they would not coexist in the same CTS marketplace. so those attributes can be in the Contact, and don't have to be in each product.

From: Holmberg, David G. (Fed) <david.holmberg@nist.gov>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:09 PM
To: Considine, Toby <Toby.Considine@unc.edu>
Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products


Separate AC and DC requires separate wires and separate meters. If a utility (or MG operator) has separate AC and DC infrastructures plus gas, and wants to put up a single market to sell DC power to the DC customers and AC to the AC customers and gas to whoever runs on gas, does that make sense? Utility XYZ marketplace for all three?


From: Considine, Toby <Toby.Considine@unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 4:48 PM
To: Holmberg, David G. (Fed) <david.holmberg@nist.gov>; wtcox <wtcox@coxsoftwarearchitects.com>; energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products


So If I convert to DC inside the meter, that is out of scope.


The question is does a single market have both DC and AC products?


From: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org <energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Holmberg, David G. (Fed) <david.holmberg@nist.gov>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 3:03 PM
To: wtcox <wtcox@coxsoftwarearchitects.com>; energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org <energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products


A typical market (or product?) is AC real energy. I might access that power at 120V nominal voltage, or 240 or 480. The meter records actual instantaneous demand as well as integrated kWh per time interval no matter what the delivered AC voltage is. I might be billed on real energy plus some charge based on instant demand (kW over a short window). I might get billed for power factor.


The market product is real energy. I purchase X kWh for some future time interval. I don’t think we can have demand ratchets, but we still might have penalties for demand peaks or bad power factor.


However, if I use DC, where is the generator? Maybe I have local PV on a DC microgrid. The market only sells DC power, and I am billed based on my metered kWh. It is still real energy. I don’t have the complications of reactive power and power factor. The meter tracks instant voltage. It still doesn’t matter where the transformers are and what the nominal voltage is at the meter, does it?


And what if the generator is some coal plant 50 miles away? It seems in that case I would always be purchasing AC power and that if I want DC I have to transform it behind my meter (or I am on a microgrid that is buying some AC power and transforming it to then sell me DC power in a separate microgrid market).


So is AC/DC part of the product definition or market context? What decides this now?




From: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org <energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org> On Behalf Of wtcox
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 10:11 AM
To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [energyinterop] Extra Attributes on Products


Makes some sense to me, but not all CTS-supporting markets are electricity markets.


Having the capability of describing Hz and voltage is important, but it can be in the marketContext (per market) or product definition (per product) where electricity is the resource.


The choice of the TE user would be at the market level for Toby's suggestion, at the product level in the initial proposal. I suspect this would be a configuration, not an operational change.


But we need to consider non-electricity markets. I doubt that Hz is meaningful in water or natural gas markets, so would this be a cached-in-market-context approach?







On 3/18/21 9:18 AM, Considine, Toby wrote:

The original EMIX was imagining a global market-place, where 220 V power and 110V power might coexist in the same market. It really walked past DC microgrids entirely, which have been growing in import, largely through the efforts of the E-Merge alliance. Frequency is one of the attributed communicated.


Try as I might, I cannot think of a CTS market in which European Power and North American power coexist. I cannot see AC and DC in the same CTS market. 


I would like to make these attributes part of the market context, and exclude them from the individual product definitions. This would simplify the CTS product descriptions (Everything in this market is for 110 volt power. or 220, and all is DC). Any comments?




William Cox 

Email: wtcox@CoxSoftwareArchitects.com 

Web: http://www.CoxSoftwareArchitects.com 

+1 862 485 3696 mobile


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