Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?

[goran.zugic@semantion.com]

The question is not at what point will the leading software vendors accept one or another OASIS standard specification. The real question is at what point will OASIS SOA specifications start representing what those companies have already implemented using their proprietary means for  decades. For example, Web Services are initiated with an idea of services introduced by Microsoft 6-7 years ago and this idea has been formed from distributed computing and component-based computing ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons from many organizations in 80s and 90s; ebXML is mostly based on EDI ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons, etc.

Standards are serving the purpose of commoditizing mainstream applications, they are not the best vehicle for abstract research. For example, Federated Enterprise Reference Architecture (FERA) is a reference architecture which ebSOA TC work is based on. FERA is based on over a hundred of real life use cases all supported with already existing proprietary technology components. It only classifies them and categorizes them into a reference architecture that already exists. It only needs to be standardized and mapped to a service-oriented framework for complete reusability and plug and play componentization. That approach reduces TCO and increases ROI, that is what standards are meant to do. That is what we have been doing with FERA-based SOA creating the first semantic based SOA Virtual Machine with SOA Information Model and SOA Semantics based on FERA which is much more than just service publishing, discovery and
message exchanges what most of the SOA is today in either a commercial product form or a standard specs form.

I know that the leading edge vendors do not like commoditization of the market, but if standards do not mature the technology and spur adoption, they have completely missed the mark IMO.

Goran

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 12:33 PM
>To: 'John Hardin', 'Jones, Steve G'
>Cc: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca, david@drrw.info, fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org,
>soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org, ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org,
>semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org, jamie.clark@oasis-open.org,
>soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>
>John:
>
>That is not a fair statement to make. IBM and Microsoft are just as
>actively implementing many OASIS standards including SAML, XACML,
>WS-Security, WS-RX, WS-***... In fact, I find that they have probably
>adopted a larger than normal share of OASIS standards. Like any other
>company, they are concentrating on implementations that are relevant to
>their customers.
>
>Duane
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Hardin [mailto:john@maphin.net]
>Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:14 AM
>To: Jones, Steve G
>Cc: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; david@drrw.info;
>fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org;
>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org;
>jamie.clark@oasis-open.org; soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: Re: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>
>The step that needs to happen, and in short order, is to get developer
>organizations, inside leading software companies, to enable thier
>products with the OASIS standards. That is happening slowly, but some of
>
>the more prominent names are Adobe, Sun, Oracle, Sybase, Cyclone
>Commerce, and many others. The major holdouts (IBM and Microsoft) need
>to come along, IMO.
>
>Unfortunately, OASIS doesn't have a marketing arm or business
>development group that has enough power to affect the development
>lifecycles for these large software companies. It's my impression that
>we are creating work that we hope, one day, will be recognized and used
>widely....
>
>Jones, Steve G wrote:
>> I think this is however the real opportunity for this group and others
>> within OASIS. There isn't a real clarity (IMO) from any of the
>vendors
>> around business oriented or abstract oriented SOA, its focused around
>what
>> their products do today.
>>
>> The reason I was interested in bringing Capgemini into OASIS is that
>this is
>> great quality work being developed independently of pushing a product.
>>
>> In terms of getting the word out, I'm assuming there is a press
>release
>> already being prepared, and analysts being briefed, around the release
>of
>> the SOA-RM (whenever that happens). As I've said before I think
>SOA-RM has
>> created a superb specification, and I've been using it with clients
>too.
>>
>>
>> There is more than enough weight on these groups to generate a market
>stir
>> around a definition of what SOA really is.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca
>[mailto:McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca]
>>>Sent: 14 November 2005 16:34
>>>To: david@drrw.info; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-
>>>open.org.soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org;
>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>>semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; jamie.clark@oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Dave,
>>>
>>
>>
>>>To extend your thoughts even further, a lot of large public and
>private
>>>sector concerns I talk to never look at the OASIS work at all. They
>have
>>>no idea what goes on here.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>The problem is some vendors have the wherewithal to push product and
>>>define interoperability as using their product everywhere!
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Wes
>>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
>>>Sent: November 8, 2005 7:45 PM
>>>To: fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org. soa-
>>>blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; semantic-
>>>ex@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
>>>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Jamie,
>>>
>>
>>
>>>The BCM TC has been saying this for two years - and hopefully will
>have
>>>the
>>>OASIS publically approved standard to back it up!
>>>
>>
>>
>>>And then the XML2004 Interop we did last year showed exactly how to
>>>achieve
>>>this using a wide selection of core OASIS-based components.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>What bothers me is these pundits ability to completely ignore all the
>>>great
>>>work OASIS is doing in the field.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>It's like its almost beneath them to actually go and download the
>white
>>>papers and specifications we have and actually take time to read them.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Seems like they only want to read glossy sales brochures and attend
>>>webinar
>>>product puffs instead...
>>>
>>
>>
>>>Thanks, DW
>>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "James Bryce Clark" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
>>>To: <fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org>; <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org.
>>>soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>;
>>><semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 1:00 PM
>>>Subject: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Interesting article from Infoweek on SOA deployment progress:
>>>> http://www.internetweek.com/173402859
>>>> I think their underlying point is excellent: the key gating
>issue
>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>>not the XML tech, but rather, the process change, deployment and
>finding
>>>>issues involved in assembling a meaningful set of ambient services
>that
>>>>sufficiently compose into useful transactions. that
>>>> Regards Jamie
>>>>
>>>>~ James Bryce Clark
>>>>~ Director, Standards Development, OASIS
>>>>~ jamie.clark@oasis-open.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This message contains information that may be privileged or
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>only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended
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>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>| john c hardin
>| Chief Technology Officer
>| http://www.maphin.net
>| 606.598.7353 office
>| 606.813.4316 cell
>| mailto:john@maphin.net
>|
>| Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee
>| http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
>|
>|
>| "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
>| image of a global village."
>|
>| Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
>|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>