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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?

I believe this highlights another difference - one based on engineering bits-and-bytes and technical "build it and they will come", as opposed to one based on business functional requirements that provide top down vision and leadership.  The former hopes that it will meet the latter - and hence the realization that the devil is in the details in trying to assertain if it does and what the gaps are...
There is a better way of engineering - but unfortunately that tends to cut across those VP Sales and Marketings quarterly sales projections by not explicitly including their pet product... and that's the beauty of SOA - since noone has a clear picture of what it really is - any can sell anything as SOA enabled.
; -)

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The
real SOA challenge?
From: Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>
Date: Tue, February 14, 2006 8:46 am
To: John Hardin <john@maphin.net>, Goran Zugic
Cc: "Hungenahally, Suresh" <suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com>, "David
Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com>,
"Jones, Steve" <steve.g.jones@capgemini.com>,
McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca, fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org,
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org, "'ebSOA OASIS TC'"
<ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>, semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org, James
Bryce Clark <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>,
soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org, vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com

The SOA Reference Model will be in public review for a while, and I
believe it provides a basic, non-specific framework to guide this
discussion. The SOA RM TC is standing up an Reference Architecture
(RA) Subcommittee (SOA-RA SC), embarking on a Reference Architecture

This is of obvious interest to me as I head up a federal CIO Council
Semantic Interoperability Community of Practice (SICoP) Semantic
Interoperability Architecture (SIA) Pilot Project that currently
fields 12-16 companies. We just demonstrated our network at the
Fourth Semantic Interoperabiity for E-Government Conference last
Thursday and Friday.

I agree with John, on this very brief overview.

The devil, of course, is in the details, where we will need to
specify how one puts together the Trust Network and the Federated
Registry/Repository System. For our my pilot's purposes the Trust
Network plans to start by incorporating XACML in the ebXML registry
portion of our registries component. Overall, our Trust Network and
Registries will employ the OASIS triumvirate of specifications, SAML,
XACML and WSS, and we will be creating both ebXML and UDDI Registries
for the two areas on which we focus. One area is Emergency
Management--using the Common Alerting Protocol (CAP) and the
Emergency Data Exchange Language (EDXL) Distribution Element
(EDXL_DE) that is soon to be released for public comment. The other
area is Health Informatics, which will require a major effort to
align with existing and developing health standards. I plan to work
that effort through the OASIS International Health Continuum TC and
the National Center for Ontological Research's (NCOR's) Committee on
Ontology for Health Informatics to bring practical interoperability
to this area.

I go into such details simply to make the point that the Devil really
IS in these details, and interoperability where the rubber meets the
road depends on it, and not on marketing hype or the battle to own a
bigger share of the public mind, so to speak. Unfortunately, the race
to market plays by its own rules, and the best we can hope to do is
to bring a better, better-thought-out, and more inherently stable and
adaptable structured alternative to the largely ad hoc efforts in the
wild and wooly weed patch of SOA as we see it today.


At 2:07 PM -0500 11/16/05, John Hardin wrote:
>It's all very simple from my standpoint:
>Federated Trust Network
>Federated Registry / Repository
>Customized Executable Business Process which operate on those
>federated networks.....
>Goran Zugic wrote:
>>David, I do not want to argue about the history. SOA (Web Services,
>>ebXML, and many other SOA related concepts, standards, etc.) has
>>not suddenly emerged from nowhere.
>>  Suresh, if I understand correctly your point, you think that the
>>business process modeling, grouping and taxonomy of processes are
>>important SOA enablers. I completely agree with you. It is very
>>important but not the only aspect of the entire SOA picture. What I
>>am also interested in is the SOA enterprise architecture and real
>>alignment between the business and technology. No marketing hype
>>but real stuff. These are my questions. Not only for you but for
>>everybody on this thread. I am just using these questions to
>>continue with discussion. Do not worry I will provide my answers
>>later and I hope that you will keep adding new questions as well.
>>The more questions and the more discussions trying to form answers
>>the better. I am sure we will not change the world but at least we
>>can start to communicate more often and exchange ideas.   1. How do
>>we integrate business processes we model as services and
>>technology? Here I mean a real automatic integration without army
>>of developers working on the "SOA Enterprise Architecture"  to
>>implement processes just modeled or to implement changes just
>>introduced. To me that kind of architecture is not SOA. That is old
>>school which we shortly talked about in our history introduction.
>>  2. How do we make SOA agile? Again automatic implementation of
>>changes without coding and both static and dynamic.  3. How do we
>>model and support business process semantics? Not just message
>>exchanges and message routing.
>>  4. How do we use standards and support standard convergence?
>>  5. What is our SOA Reference Model?
>>  6. What is our complete SOA reference architecture?
>>  7. Do we have an SOA methodology and what the SOA methodology is all about?
>>  8. What are our SOA best practices?
>>  9. What are the most critical SOA missing points and failures so
>>far and how to fix them or not repeat them?
>>  10. What is the overall OASIS plan with regards to SOA, SOA TCs
>>related work and their relationship?
>>  11. How can we start to work together and use each others "products"?
>>  12. How can we (TCs and OASIS) convince more leading vendors to be
>>involved in the SOA specs development and start using SOA specs we
>>are working on?
>>   I think that we should keep the entire original content of the
>>messages for the completeness of the thread.
>>  Goran
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Hungenahally, Suresh <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com>
>>     *To:* David Webber (XML) <mailto:david@drrw.info> ;
>>     goran.zugic@semantion.com <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com> ; Duane
>>     Nickull <mailto:dnickull@adobe.com> ; John Hardin
>>     <mailto:john@maphin.net> ; Jones, Steve
>>     <mailto:steve.g.jones@capgemini.com>
>>     *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca
>>     <mailto:McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> ; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     <mailto:fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org> ; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     <mailto:soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org> ; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     <mailto:ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
>>     semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     <mailto:semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
>>     jamie.clark@oasis-open.org <mailto:jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> ;
>>     soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     <mailto:soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
>>     vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com
>>     <mailto:vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:06 PM
>>     *Subject:* RE: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real
>>     SOA challenge?
>>     Hi,
>>     I am new to the group.  Please bear with me if I do not understand
>>     how this works.
>>     Agree 100% with David Webber, the key is in this point that David
>>     makes  "So much for history - no need to dwell there - the challenge
>>     now is to bring *real business enabled XML-driven processes and SOA
>>     to fruition."*
>>     **     Which means we need to clearly address:
>>     1. SOA and processes integration by broad domains (Finance, Telco,
>>     Transport, Defence, Government etc.) We could use models such as the
>>     eTOM as a starting point.
>>     2. Establish a standard grouping of processes within the business
>>     domains
>>     3. Then look at which of these can be enabled using XML.
>>     4. In Australia the DOMEDI group did similar work in the Transport
>>     domain (thouogh for a different purpose)
>>     5. Finally a taxonomy of the business, processes, enablers and XML
>>     transactions
>>     Regards.  Suresh
>>     ________________________________________________
>>     Dr. Suresh Hungenahally| *Capgemini* | Melbourne
>>     Senior Manager
>>     477 Collin St. Melbourne 3000 Australia
>>     T.  + 61 3 9613 3343 | M. + 61 402 408 816| F. + 61 3 9613
>>3333.     E. _suresh.hungenahally_@capgemini.com
>>     <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com>   |   www.capgemini.com
>>     <http://www.capgemini.com>
>>     *Join the Collaborative Business Experience*
>>     ________________________________________________________
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, 16 November 2005 2:55 PM
>>     *To:* goran.zugic@semantion.com <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com>;
>>     Duane Nickull; John Hardin; Jones, Steve
>>     *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>     soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>     semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; jamie.clark@oasis-open.org;
>>     soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>     vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com; goran.zugic@semantion.com
>>     *Subject:* Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real
>>     SOA challenge?
>>     Goran,
>>     While I like what you say vis SOA here - I have to take you to task
>>     on history ; -)
>>     The ebXML foundation came out of the work of the XML/edi Group
>>     aligned with the work of CEFACT on ooEDI.
>>     It completely breaks the mold on EDI.  Yes - things like ebMS are
>>     founded on EDI+ communications - but the core of the ebXMl stack -
>>     registry-centric XML-driven collaboration - and the notion of the
>>     "Fusion of Five" is designed to sweep away the old EDI
>>practices.     Unfortunately XML as implemented today is nothing
>>more than a
>>     slightly better EDI.  The whole XML revolution is yet to truely take
>>     hold.
>>     As for web services - this was a shameless grab by IBM and Microsoft
>>     - attempting to be first to market ahead of ebXML with concepts that
>>     in essence are nothing more than "real-time EDI" - with all the same
>>     strengths and weaknesses of the
>>     original real-time EDI implementations - just using XML and the
>>     internet instead of EDI and private networks.
>>     So much for history - no need to dwell there - the challenge now is
>>     to bring real business enabled XML-driven processes and SOA to fruition.
>>     Cheers, DW
>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>          For example, Web Services are initiated with an idea of
>>         services introduced by Microsoft 6-7 years ago and this idea has
>>         been formed from distributed computing and component-based
>>         computing ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons from many
>>         organizations in 80s and 90s; ebXML is mostly based on EDI ideas
>>         and "learn on mistakes" lessons, etc.
>>     This message contains information that may be privileged or
>>     confidential and is the property of the Capgemini Group. It is
>>     intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not
>>     the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print,
>>     retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any
>>     part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify
>>     the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message.
>|  john c hardin
>|  Chief Technology Officer
>|  http://www.maphin.net
>|  606.598.7353 office
>|  606.813.4316 cell
>|  mailto:john@maphin.net
>|  Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee
>|  http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
>|  "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
>|   image of a global village."
>|    Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962

Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309

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