Re: [humanmarkup] Re: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED

[Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>]

I'm glad you used the fruit metaphor because one of the attractive 
aspects of HumanML_Write and Report is the "low hanging fruit" 
aspect. It is relatively easy, very useful immediately, and not very 
likely to engender controversy.

As a visual artist with a lifetime of experience in Graphic Design, I 
can tell you that agreement about the meaning. intensity, value, hue, 
saturation, light in which viewed, and emotional connotations of 
color is less than unlikely. Let's start with the fact that we have 
no prayer of standardizing the gamma of the monitors on which our 
emotionally color-keyed HumanML content is viewed, so no subtlety 
would be possible in anything resembling a standard acceptable merely 
on the basis of electronically metered output. Then you can start in 
on the emotional reactions about emotional reactions to colors. Then 
you can deal with differing emotional reactions to the interpretation 
of fonts and styles, in which I have an equal amount of experience, 
which tells me that this effort has a shaky future at best. I've 
looked at the efforts that otherwise bright people have made in this 
direction and all I can do is shake my head in amazement.

You don't have to take my word for it. Try it. But please do 
HumanML_Write and Report first and separately so that we can have 
that low hanging fruit now.

Sorry to be such a spoilsport, but this is one area I know entirely 
too much about since i have spent such a large amount of my time 
trying to get approvals for expressions in just this proposed area. 
The one thing I I can guarantee is that I won't get embroiled in it 
except to say that it will bring results entirely unexpected and most 
probably unpleasant. And I've had more successes than failures in it, 
so gotake it for what it's worth.

However, have as much fun as you can.

Ciao,
Rex

At 2:41 PM -0500 11/5/01, Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga wrote:
>(Our "unanimous" agreements till now have kinda made me assume that there
>would be no problem making informal decisions like this, assuming they would
>be ratified.  However, you're right Rex, we really should make sure we are
>clear that this is only a proposed decision.)
>
>Although it is important to make sure we make the right perceptions, for
>obvious reasons, it is fundamental for the project to match "who we are" and
>how we can best contribute.  In a sense, I wouldn't have made this
>suggestion if I hadn't known about Joe's own expertise and
>profession--writing.  He would be able to inculcate far more of his
>expertise and ideas into organizing such a subcommittee.  Further, the
>applications are obvious -- marked up text to convey human information
>through colors, fonts, styles.  Doesn't take long to get real, tangible,
>solid fruit serving as an exemplar for future efforts.
>
>This is why I started off with the new example (which, to clarify, is
>*completely independent of the proposed subcommittee* as it stands.)
>
>Well, that's my take...I won't be speaking for Joe however--Joe:  please do
>clarify what you think.
>
>Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
>To: "Joseph Norris" <jwnorris@humanmarkup.org>; "OASIS TC MAIN"
><humanmarkup@lists.oasis-open.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [humanmarkup] Re: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED
>
>
>>  This ought to be an agenda item at our next meeting, or else you guys
>>  ought to make a formal motion to make this change then open the floor
>>  for debate. This isn't meant as a slap, but just a call for regular
>>  business-like discipline in TC affairs, okay?
>>
>>  So, taking the tack that the floor is open on this soon-to-be-formal
>>  motion to change the nature of the HumanML_Write Subcommittee, I
>>  would like to say that I think these should be separated.
>>  HumanML_Write and Report are based on existent forms of writing and
>  > reporting, and would gain us much need credibility as a pragmatic,
>>  results-oriented group as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky unrealistically
>>  idealistic bunch of dreamers.
>>
>>  This is not to say that I hold those views, just that we have had
>>  ample proof of that perception of us and, especially in the midst of
>>  a tech economic slow down, too-often termed a dot-com  meltdown in
>>  the mainstream media, referring to one of our subcommittees, however
>>  accurately it may actually be, as "new media" will likely reinforce
>>  that negative perception of us.
>>
>>  Now, having said that, I happen to agree that this makes sense, and I
>>  really hate to make the argument that we need to cave in to popular
>>  perceptions that happen to be outright wrong, I think this is a time
>>  to be careful of the next set of perceptions we engender of our
>>  committee and our work.
>>
>>  So, even though a formal motion has not been made, I am going to move
>>  that we divide the question into 1: ought we to expand the charter of
>>  the HumanML_Write Subcommittee and/or 2: ought we form a new
>>  Subcommittee for "Innovative Media" as opposed to "New Media" to
>>  develop proposals for adapting Human Markup Language to new forms of
>>  media?
>>
>>  My argument is that HumanML_Write exists and can easily be conducted
>>  as an on-going effort, while a new media effort requires a change of
>>  focus detracting from the important work of developing a showcase
>>  application that is in essence a sample implementation of the
>>  specification we are building.
>>
>>  Secondarily, I have a great interest in the development of an
>>  off-shoot of HumanML_Write, called HumanML_Report based on existing
>>  forms of reports which can be readily adapted as part of the sample
>>  implementation of the Human Markup Language Specification, and which
>>  is readily useable by our society at large almost immediately and can
>>  show demonstrable benefits which can be change the perception of our
>>  work from unrealistically idealistic to fundamentally pragmatic and
>>  down-to-Earth. And, most importantly of all: Easy to Understand.
>>
>>  Ciao,
>>  Rex
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 10:53 PM -0500 11/4/01, Joseph Norris wrote:
>>  >Dear Ranjeeth and everyone,
>>  >
>>  >That is a great idea. I hope with such a move we can expand our outreach
>to
>>  >writers and other non-computer scientist researchers that would be
>>  >interested in contributing to HM development.
>>  >
>>  >HumanML_Write, and a host of other possible HM applications, will surely
>>  >appeal to many creative groups of researchers.
>>  >
>>  >I will develop an outline for incorporating the new goals, interests, and
>>  >research areas within the subcommittee. I am not sure as to what name
>would
>>  >encompass both roles well, so I will mull on one. Any ideas?
>>  >
>>  >Cordially,
>>  >
>>  >Joe Norris
>>  >jwnorris@mindspring.com
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >----- Original Message -----
>>  >From: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org>
>>  >To: "OASIS TC MAIN" <humanmarkup@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>  >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 2:05 PM
>>  >Subject: [humanmarkup] Re: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>  Joe,
>>  >>
>>  >>  I wanted to suggest expand the scope of your subcommitte from
>>  >"HumanML_Write
>>  >>  Subcommittee" to be "Writing Subcommittee" (or something appropritely
>>  >>  named).
>>  >>
>>  >>  This would still include HumanML_Write, but would have a broader set
>of
>>  >>  goals including many of the topics you mentioned in your last post on
>the
>>  >>  comments board.  Normally, I wouldn't recommend expanding the scope of
>a
>>  >>  project when the milestones, as they stand, have not yet developed.
>>  >  > However, I suggest this because it allows us to tap into so much more
>>  >>  potential, and allows your expertise to be most effectively conveyed..
>>  >>
>>  >>  Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  >>  From: "Rob Nixon" <rnixon@qdyn.com>
>>  >>  To: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org>
>>  >>  Cc: "Joseph Norris" <jwnorris@humanmarkup.org>; "OASIS Comment"
>>  >>  <humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>  >>  Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:02 PM
>  > >>  Subject: Re: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  > Ranjeeth, Joe,
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Regarding emotions, we should closely examine the work of people
>like
>>  >Nico
>>  >>  H.
>>  >>  > Frijda.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > He has written a very interesting book called "The Emotions":
>Studies in
>>  >>  Emotion
>>  >>  > & Social Interaction.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > I've read it a number of times and believe that it would form a good
>>  >>  reference
>>  >>  > for our work on emotions in regards to HumanML.  There are many
>other
>>  >>  sources as
>>  >>  > well.  Are either of you familiar with Frijda's work?
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Rob
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga wrote:
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > > Thanks Joe for your interest.  Certainly there are a variety of
>>  >>  applications
>>  >>  > > in the creative domain for HumanML.
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > It would be very much appreciated if you could do the following
>Joe:
>>  >>  > > 1) Write a short story, filled with both *tacit* and *explicit*
>human
>>  >>  > > emotion and expression -- 2 pages or so is fine.
>>  >>  > > 2) Describe an *authoritative* reference *enumerating* the human
>>  >kinesic
>>  >>  > > expressions and emotions which you want to use.  If not, then we
>can
>>  >>  simply
>>  >>  > > use the enumerations described in the HM.frameworks document for
>now.
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > After that, we can then develop the HumanML - XML Schema modules
>for
>>  >>  > > emotions and kinesics to help build this particular example.
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > I know you're kinda busy with a lot of things...if don't get to
>it,
>>  >I'll
>>  >>  try
>>  >>  > > to drum up a short story from somewhere in the next couple of
>days.
>>  >>  > > However, your writing background would be very useful to have
>direct
>>  >>  input
>>  >>  > > from.
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > Take care,
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>>  >>  > > From: "Joseph Norris" <jwnorris@humanmarkup.org>
>>  >>  > > To: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org>; "OASIS
>>  >Comment"
>>  >>  > > <humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>  >>  > > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:47 AM
>>  >>  > > Subject: Re: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > > Dear Ranjeeth,
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > Thank you for mentioning HM applications for writers. As
>discussed
>>  >in
>>  >>  > > Phase
>>  >>  > > > 0, new types of writing technologies are well suited towards HM
>>  >>  > > > enhancements. The possibilities are legion - from electronic
>novels
>>  >>  > > (called
>>  >>  > > > "e-pics" by literary commentators) to the simple tagging of
>scripts
>>  >>  and
>>  >>  > > > screenplays.
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > On a very basic level, for example, a playwright could encode
>his or
>>  >>  her
>>  >>  > > > stage directions, settings, and instructions to actors. Scripts
>for
>>  >>  > > > electronic games or Ebooks could be tagged with HM information
>that
>>  >>  can be
>>  >>  > > > feed into a 3D interactive world where avatar actors can respond
>in
>>  >>  ways
>>  >>  > > > encoded by the author. Electronic storytelling can aid in
>education
>>  >>  and
>>  >>  > > > entertainment.
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > I do really enjoy talking about the practical real-world
>>  >applications
>>  >>  of
>>  >>  > > > HumanMarkup.
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > Writing and other creative endeavors will never be the same
>after
>>  >>  > > > HumanMarkup changes the computer from a glorified typewriter and
>the
>>  >>  > > > internet from a mere display-case into to something
>revolutionary,
>>  >>  > > > interactive, and real.
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > Cordially,
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > Joe Norris
>>  >>  > > > jwnorris@humanmarkup.org
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>  >>  > > > From: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org>
>>  >>  > > > To: "OASIS Comment" <humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>  >>  > > > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 1:14 AM
>>  >>  > > > Subject: [humanmarkup-comment] HMU.newmedia: CREATED
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > > Here is a simple example I bring up to start engaging the
>>  >HumanML -
>>  >>  XML
>>  >>  > > > > Schema.
>  > >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > It isn't the most pragmatic example in light of recent events,
>but
>>  >I
>>  >>  > > > wanted
>>  >>  > > > > to start because it is the most straightforward example I have
>>  >>  > > envisioned
>>  >>  > > > > HumanML to be applied for.   It's probably the best example to
>get
>>  >>  > > juices
>>  >>  > > > > flowing.  My colleage Mei created a similar example, using
>ad-hoc
>>  >>  > > HumanML
>>  >>  > > > > tags, a few months ago.  However, we could expand this to
>create a
>>  >>  full
>>  >>  > > > > fledged example:
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>
>>
>>http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/humanmarkup/documents/HMU.newmedia.txt
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > HMU.newmedia
>>  >>  > > > > last updated:  4 November 2001
>>  >>  > > > > (example describing how we could use HumanML to convey
>emotions in
>>  >>  New
>>  >>  > > > Media
>>  >>  > > > > writing)
>>  >>  > > > > --------------------
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > PROBLEM:
>>  >>  > > > > -----
>>  >>  > > > > I am a writer.  I write stories for a living.  I love my
>>  >profession,
>>  >>  and
>>  >>  > > I
>>  >>  > > > > am glad I am able to convey my message and perspectives
>through
>>  >the
>>  >>  > > > > experiences of the characters in my story.  Unfortunately,
>>  >however,
>>  >>  I
>>  >>  > > feel
>>  >>  > > > > very limited in my ability to express myself, due to the
>>  >limitations
>>  >>  of
>>  >>  > > > > black and white text.
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > The World Wide Web has now allowed for much greater
>possibilites
>>  >of
>>  >>  > > > > expression, mixing sound, graphics, colors, and music in so
>many
>>  >>  ways.
>>  >>  > > > Now,
>>  >>  > > > > I can use various colors, fonts, and styles to express my
>emotions
>>  >>  and
>>  >>  > > > > expressions much more strikingly and effectively.  However,
>*how*
>>  >>  should
>>  >>  > > > I,
>>  >>  > > > > or could I, do this?
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > PROPOSED SOLUTION:
>>  >>  > > > > -----
>>  >>  > > > > Use Human Markup Language to embed emotions and expressions
>(i.e.
>>  >>  > > > kinesics)
>>  >>  > > > > within the text of the message.  Then, create a legend of
>sorts at
>>  >>  the
>>  >>  > > > > bottom of the screen, which conveyes what this means.  Based
>on
>>  >>  style
>>  >>  > > > > guidelines, new media text could represent far greater pallete
>of
>>  >>  > > > > presentation possibilities of textual information.
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > This would call for the use of "HumanML - XML Schema" and
>>  >>   "HumanML -
>>  >>  > > > Style
>>  >>  > > > > Guidelines"
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > Feel free to take it from here...
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > > --------------------------
>>  >>  > > > > Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the
>subscription
>>  >>  > > > > manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>  >>  > > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  >>  > > > manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>  >>  > > >
>>  >>  > >
>>  >>  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  >>  > > manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  >>  > manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>  >>  >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  >>  manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  >manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>  >
>>
>>  --
>>  Rex Brooks
>>  GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
>>  W3Address: http://www.starbourne.com
>>  Email: rexb@starbourne.com
>>  Tel: 510-849-2309
>>  Fax: By Request
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>  manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>


-- 
Rex Brooks
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
W3Address: http://www.starbourne.com
Email: rexb@starbourne.com
Tel: 510-849-2309
Fax: By Request