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Subject: Re: [imi] Clarifications to the spec to discuss for our call onThursday


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Better, thanks Mike.

For auditing mode cards do we want to say that the IP/STS SHOULD use =20
the certificate chain to produce the PPID with a cryptographically non-=20=

invertible function, such as the one used to calculate the PPID for p-=20=

cards.

If we are going to have the spec say that the selector should send the =20=

PPID for auditing mode cards,  I don't want to infer that using that =20
even with a hash function is better than calculating it from the site =20=

cert chain.

=3Djbradley
On 7-Jan-09, at 11:52 PM, Mike Jones wrote:

> OK, based on a private discussion on this topic with John, I=92m going =
=20
> to suggest that we change the language =93The IP/STS MAY use this =20
> value as-is or as an input seed to a custom function to derive a =20
> value for the PPID claim=94 to  =93The IP/STS SHOULD combine this PPID =
=20
> seed value with constant information known to the IP/STS and pass =20
> the combination through a cryptographically non-invertible function, =20=

> such as a cryptographic hash function, to generate the PPID claim =20
> value sent in the signed token=94.
>
>                                                                 -- =20
> Mike
>
> From: John Bradley [mailto:jbradley@mac.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 1:02 PM
> To: imi@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [imi] Clarifications to the spec to discuss for our =20
> call on Thursday
>
> <snip>
> On 7-Jan-09, at 5:17 PM, Michael McIntosh wrote:
>
>
> John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> wrote on 01/07/2009 02:21:00 PM:
> >
> > <inline>
> > On 7-Jan-09, at 1:18 PM, Michael McIntosh wrote:
> >
> > > John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> wrote on 01/07/2009 11:00:04 AM:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > However a IP/STS trusting a PPID coming from a selector has =20
> always
> > > > made me a bit nervous.   I could as an example modify the =20
> Higgins
> > > > selector to send arbitrary PPID values in a RST.  If the IP/=20
> STS say
> > > > Verisign blindly includes it in its signed response the RP =20
> checking
> > > > the PPID and sig as it would for a p-card could be spoofed if =20=

> it was
> > > > relying solely on those two values.
> > > >
> > > > Including a pre-calculated PPID may make some IP/STS lazy and =20=

> not
> > > > calculate it themselves when they clearly can.
> > > >
> > > > Minimally I think the PPID coming from the selector should be =20=

> used
> > > > as input to some other hash function to at-least make spoofing
> > > more difficult.
> > > >
> > > > I know the spec allows for using the PPID as input to a custom
> > > > function,  but I have never seen an explanation of why that is a
> > > good idea.
> > > >
> > > > I am OK with always including the PPID in the request if =20
> someplace
> > > > we document the security issues around PPID in m-cards.
> > >
> > > In order for the IdP to compute the PPID, it needs to know the =20
> RP ID.
> > > A user may not want to tell the IdP the name of every site they =20=

> visit.
> > >
> > Agreed that is why we have the two options though they are at the
> > discretion of the card issuer not the user.
>
> Not completely.
> The IdP (AKA Card Issuer) gets to specify whether the RP identity is =20=

> required, not required, or optional - and that information is in the =20=

> card and/or IdP metadata (I forget which).
> The RP gets to specify whether or not a specific IdP is required, or =20=

> whether any is acceptable.
> The user gets to select which card (and therefore which IdP) will be =20=

> used.
>
> If a user does not want to use a card that requires disclosure of RP =20=

> identity to the IdP, it can choose another card.
> If the only cards the user has that match the RP policy are cards =20
> that require RP disclosure, the user can go elsewhere.
>
> As far as I know there is nothing in the selector that tells the =20
> user that it is going to disclose the identity of the RP to the IdP.
>
> So I agree that in principal the user is free to select any card =20
> that matches the required claims but if they have two cards one =20
> auditing and one not they have no easy way to distinguish between =20
> them.
>
> I have to go back and look at how optional auditing mode works that =20=

> is a new one to me.
>
> As near as I can see with current selectors the power is in the =20
> hands of the IdP,  unless I am missing something.
>
> =3Djbradley
>
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Better, thanks =
Mike.<div><br></div><div>For auditing mode cards do we want to say that =
the IP/STS SHOULD use the certificate chain to produce the PPID with =
a&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; =
font-size: 13px; ">cryptographically non-invertible function, such as =
the one used to&nbsp;calculate&nbsp;the PPID for =
p-cards.</span></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px;">If we are going to have the spec say that the =
selector should send the PPID for auditing mode cards, &nbsp;I don't =
want to infer that using that even with a hash function is better =
than&nbsp;calculating&nbsp;it from the site cert =
chain.</span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
13px;">=3Djbradley<br></span></font><div><div>On 7-Jan-09, at 11:52 PM, =
Mike Jones wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
class=3D"Section1"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">OK, based on a private =
discussion on this topic with John, I=92m going to suggest that we =
change the language =93</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">The IP/STS MAY use this value as-is or =
as an input seed to a custom function to derive a value for the PPID =
claim</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">=94 to &nbsp;=93</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">The IP/STS =
SHOULD combine this PPID seed value with constant information known to =
the IP/STS and pass the combination through a cryptographically =
non-invertible function, such as a cryptographic hash function, to =
generate the PPID claim value sent in the signed token</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">=94.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"border-right-style: =
none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: =
initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; =
padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: =
0in; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>John Bradley [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">mailto:jbradley@mac.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, January 07, 2009 =
1:02 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:imi@lists.oasis-open.org"; style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">imi@lists.oasis-open.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [imi] Clarifications to =
the spec to discuss for our call on =
Thursday<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&lt;snip><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 7-Jan-09, at 5:17 PM, =
Michael McIntosh wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">jbradley@mac.com</a>> wrote on 01/07/2009 02:21:00 =
PM:</span></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> &lt;inline></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> On 7-Jan-09, at 1:18 PM, =
Michael McIntosh wrote:</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; =
">><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">jbradley@mac.com</a>> wrote on 01/07/2009 11:00:04 =
AM:</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> ></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > &lt;snip></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > ></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > However a IP/STS trusting a =
PPID coming from a selector has always</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New'; ">> > > made me a bit nervous. &nbsp; I could as an =
example modify the Higgins</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New'; ">> > > selector to send arbitrary PPID values in a RST. &nbsp;If =
the IP/STS say</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > =
Verisign blindly includes it in its signed response the RP =
checking</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > the =
PPID and sig as it would for a p-card could be spoofed if it =
was</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > relying =
solely on those two values.</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New'; ">> > ></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > =
Including a pre-calculated PPID may make some IP/STS lazy and =
not</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > calculate =
it themselves when they clearly can.</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New'; ">> > ></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; =
">> > > Minimally I think the PPID coming from the selector should be =
used</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > as input =
to some other hash function to at-least make spoofing &nbsp;</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > more difficult.</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > ></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > I know the spec allows for =
using the PPID as input to a custom</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New'; ">> > > function, &nbsp;but I have never seen an =
explanation of why that is a &nbsp;</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New'; ">> > good idea.</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New'; ">> > ></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; =
">> > > I am OK with always including the PPID in the request if =
someplace</tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > > we =
document the security issues around PPID in m-cards.</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> ></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > In order for the IdP to =
compute the PPID, it needs to know the RP ID.</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> > A user may not want to tell =
the IdP the name of every site they visit.</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> ></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> Agreed that is why we have the =
two options though they are at the &nbsp;</tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; ">> discretion of the card issuer =
not the user.</tt></span><br><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New'; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Not =
completely.</span></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">The IdP (AKA Card Issuer) gets to =
specify whether the RP identity is required, not required, or optional - =
and that information is in the card and/or IdP metadata (I forget =
which).</span></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">The RP gets to specify whether or not a =
specific IdP is required, or whether any is =
acceptable.</span></tt><br><tt style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">The user gets to select which card =
(and therefore which IdP) will be used.</span></tt><br><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">If a user does not want to use a card that requires disclosure of RP =
identity to the IdP, it can choose another card.</span></tt><br><tt =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">If the only cards the user has that match the RP policy are cards that =
require RP disclosure, the user can go elsewhere.</span></tt><span =
class=3D"apple-style-span"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; =
">&nbsp;</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; ">As far as I know there is nothing in the selector that =
tells the user that it is going to disclose the identity of the RP to =
the IdP.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">So I agree that in =
principal the user is free to select any card that matches the =
required&nbsp;claims&nbsp;but if they have two cards one auditing and =
one not they have no easy way to distinguish between =
them.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I have to go back and =
look at how optional auditing mode works that is a new one to =
me.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">As near as I can see with =
current selectors the power is in the hands of the IdP, &nbsp;unless I =
am missing something.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">=3Djbradley<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br><=
/div></body></html>=

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