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Subject: Re: [legalcitem-technical] Modified: Technical subcommittee meeting June 10th
Dear Monica, please find enclosed the dump of the chat. Most of the things were written down, as the voice connection was bad, so I believe you should be able to understand what was discussed. Ciao Monica -- -- > [17:09] Fabio: hello > [17:10] anonymous morphed into Daniel Lupescu > [17:11] Fabio: Is everybody online? > [17:11] Fabio: veronique? Are you online? > [17:12] parisse: not for the moment > [17:17] Fabio: is anyone hearing me? > [17:17] parisse: yes > [17:17] Grant Vergottini: I can hear you > [17:17] Catherine Tabone: yes > [17:17] Fabio: Daniel can you repeat what you said? > [17:17] Fabio: Grant was it you? > [17:17] Grant Vergottini: I was talking > [17:18] Fabio: sorry > [17:18] Grant Vergottini: I said that I thought that it would be good to compare our model to what the other groups need - particularly legislative > [17:19] Grant Vergottini: To make sure we've got enough of a model > [17:20] Grant Vergottini: So our model doesn't have fixed fields? Just a way to establish fields? > [17:20] Catherine Tabone: I think there may be some different assumptions within the whole TC about how the model will work in practice so it would be good to share something concrete so we can ensure we have the same expectations > [17:20] Fabio: Well, SOME fixed fields, such as country and schema and dates > [17:21] Fabio: I agree with you @Catherine > [17:21] Grant Vergottini: So we define the basic model with a meta model for extensions beyond the basic model? > [17:21] Grant Vergottini: ok. > [17:22] Grant Vergottini: Can you put together a strawman for us to poke at? > [17:22] Fabio: say http://www.resolver.com/schema/country/something/somethingelse/language/somethingevenmoreelse/ > [17:23] Grant Vergottini: Isn't that getting a bit ELI'ish? > [17:23] Fabio: where the something are replaced by things that are different document type by document type > [17:23] Fabio: No. There IS a syntax. > [17:23] Fabio: Just not A syntax, but as many syntaxes as there are groups > [17:23] Fabio: parseable > [17:25] Grant Vergottini: Yes > [17:26] Fabio: Could you find examples of references that lead you to choose the non-parseable syntax of ELI > [17:26] Fabio: ? > [17:27] Fabio: Nasty complicated examples that demonstrate the futilitiy of parseability? > [17:27] Catherine Tabone: Sure I can find some examples > [17:27] Fabio: BTW is it parsable or parseable? > [17:27] Catherine Tabone: I had the same question when I wrote my previous email > [17:28] Grant Vergottini: Both spellings work > [17:29] Fabio: QUESTION for ELI people: would you ACCEPT the idea of ELI becoming the syntax for ITEMS and something more parseable to be the syntax for references at the work, expression and manifestation levels? > [17:30] Fabio: So that the whole bit would be a URI schema for W, E, and M that get resolved into an ELI for the Item? > [17:31] Catherine Tabone: This is something that I can put to the group but I'm not hopeful > [17:31] Grant Vergottini: By that do you mean that ELI identifies the hierarchical location of something, but that other aspects of the mode are modeled in a more parsable manner? > [17:31] Grant Vergottini: mode = model > [17:31] parisse: what do you mean by item ? > [17:32] Grant Vergottini: FRBR ITEM, I'm assuming > [17:32] Fabio: yes. ELI would be the contract each individual European country adheres to for he naming of their own documents, and the LegalCitem schema would be the thing everybody in the world adheres to for REFERENCES > [17:32] Fabio: yes, ITEM = FRBR Item > [17:32] parisse: yes but it means a physical book ? > [17:32] Fabio: no a physical item somewhere on a server > [17:32] Fabio: physical file > [17:33] parisse: yes, one precise examplar of a manifestation ? > [17:33] Fabio: correct > [17:33] parisse: what is the interest to have it ? > [17:33] Fabio: So my proposal is this: Akoma Ntoso currently lacks the means, authority and credibility to impose a specific naming convention for the physical files, while the EU could easily impose one > [17:34] Fabio: This could be ELI > [17:34] Fabio: Then for references that are more abstract than actual files, say an act or a specific version of an act, you'd use a syntax that is more structured and homogenized and parsable > [17:35] Fabio: where something similar to AKN could be used > [17:35] Fabio: what do you think? > [17:35] Grant Vergottini: I like that idea, but need to think about all the various cases > [17:36] Daniel Lupescu: I thought the whole purpose of this group was to find a common syntax for everything? Wouldn't it be weird to have 2 different syntaxes? > [17:37] Grant Vergottini: We must remember that the resolver is capable of computing a result -- it's not just a simple lookup. So, the resolver needs parseability that simply hierarchical lookup does not. > [17:38] Fabio: sorry for the noise. machines washing the street outside > [17:38] Fabio: Grant, I agree. > [17:38] Fabio: The issue is that parsability to me is an issue. Certainly i t is an issue for W, E and M. We never dealt with Itens, so multiplicity of syntaxes in Items is less an issue for me > [17:39] Fabio: actually it is NOT an issue at all > [17:39] Grant Vergottini: I'm liking this distinction more and more. > [17:40] Fabio: especially if we manage to make the parsable syntax of W E and M get as close as possible to the parts of ELI that are shared by all different implementations, the URI of an expression could become VERY similar to the URI of the Item > [17:40] Catherine Tabone: One of the reasons for flexibility in the ELI syntax is that the countries couldn't agree on the common characteristics of a work and expression > [17:40] Fabio: and possibly identical > [17:41] Fabio: we're back at: let's see some nasty examples > [17:42] Fabio: Ok. So let me recapitulate (i.e. surrender for the second time): > [17:42] Fabio: 1) parsability is an issue > [17:42] Catherine Tabone: I will send some today, probably a bit too long for chat > [17:43] Fabio: 2) we would liem to come up with a proposal for a meta-model with some fixed fields, such as schema, cpoutnry and such > [17:43] Grant Vergottini: Yes, we need to see what couldn't be agreed to. I can't envision what the problem is. > [17:44] Fabio: 3) there is a proposal to provide a parsable syntax for W E and M and not impose one for Items, so that individual countries could continue adopting nationalized versions of the syntax for items > [17:44] Fabio: 4) we are currently discussing about whether this is a good way out, in particular by considering nasty examples that in the past has led the ELI group to relax on the parsability of the identifier > [17:45] Fabio: Does it make sense? Can I go on with this line? > [17:45] Grant Vergottini: Yes, Fabio > [17:45] Fabio: Anybody else? > [17:46] Catherine Tabone: It is worth noting that the ELI identifer doesn't need to be parsed. It is the URL for the page in question. In this respect ELI and AKN are trying to do slightly differnt things and is the reason for the imposed flexibility. > [17:46] Fabio: Catherine: exactly: AKN are syntaxes for references, not for identifiers > [17:47] Fabio: not for pages > [17:47] Fabio: AKN does NOT care what the URI of the page is > [17:47] Fabio: that's the item > [17:49] Fabio: Do I have your approval to organize my presentation next week along these 5 lines (my four plus Catherine's comment)? > [17:50] Catherine Tabone: Some ELI implementations do return pages for expressions - i.e. a list of all formats for the version or all lanaguges available or work pages - listing metadata for the work and all versions available, others like UK direct you to the item you're most likely to want > [17:51] Catherine Tabone: i agree > [17:51] Grant Vergottini: I agree > [17:51] Daniel Lupescu: Ok Fabio > [17:51] Fabio: Good. Thank you > [17:51] parisse: ok > [17:51] Grant Vergottini: Yes, please > [17:52] Grant Vergottini: Ok, bye > [17:52] parisse: ok > [17:52] parisse: bye On 11/giu/2015, at 06:26, monica.palmirani <monica.palmirani@unibo.it> wrote: > Fabio, > > I was not able to join to the meeting at 5pm CST. > For all the legalcitem-technical member that were not able to join > can you summarize in an email the key points of the discussion and the decisions? > > Thanks, > Monica > Il 10/06/2015 18:24, Frank Bennett ha scritto: >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Frank Bennett <biercenator@gmail.com> wrote: >> I was very short on sleep yesterday, napped after I got home from work, and have just woken up (at 1:10am on the 11th JST). I called the line, just in case, after seeing the postponement notice from Fabio, but it looks like I've missed. >> >> I'll try again at 5:00am here. >> >> (I see that I misread the note - 5:00[pm] was just the CST time of the original [or postponed?] meeting.) >> >> I will await further instructions. >> >> FB >> >> >> >> FB >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:24 PM, OASIS Open <workgroup_mailer@lists.oasis-open.org> wrote: >> Submitter's message >> Dear all, >> >> unfortunately I will not make it for the time we scheduled for the teleconf. I am postponing one hour or, if you prefer, in another date. >> >> Sorry for the late notification... >> -- Mr. Fabio Vitali >> Event Title: Technical subcommittee meeting June 10th >> Date: Wednesday, 10 June 2015, 05:00pm to 06:00pm CEST >> Location: usual teleconf tools >> Description >> Details for the call in number and chat room are in the action item at >> >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem/members/action_item.php?action_item_id=3684 >> >> except for chat room, which will be at the URL stated in the above-mentioned link, but ending with "legalcitem-technical" instead of "legalcitem". >> >> >> This meeting counts towards voter eligibility. >> Agenda >> planning for report on activities to general TC meeting of June 17th. >> >> >> Owner: Mr. Fabio Vitali >> Group: LegalCiteM Technical SC >> Sharing: This event is shared with the OASIS Open (General Membership), and General Public groups. Public Event Link >> Microsoft Outlook users: You will see event notifications requiring further action in your Outlook mail application. >> Non-Outlook users: We still recommend subscribing to a Group or organization-wide calendar to keep your calendar updated. >> >> • Learn more about subscribing here. >> • View the updated Group web calendar here. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> >> > > > -- > =================================== > Associate professor of Legal Informatics > School of Law > Alma Mater Studiorum Università di Bologna > C.I.R.S.F.I.D. > http://www.cirsfid.unibo.it/ > > Palazzo Dal Monte Gaudenzi - Via Galliera, 3 > I - 40121 BOLOGNA (ITALY) > Tel +39 051 277217 > Fax +39 051 260782 > E-mail > monica.palmirani@unibo.it > > ==================================== > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php -- Fabio Vitali The sage and the fool Dept. of Informatics go to their graves Univ. of Bologna ITALY alike in this respect: phone: +39 051 2094872 both believe the sage to be a fool. e-mail: fabio@cs.unibo.it Where, then, may wisdom be found? http://vitali.web.cs.unibo.it/ Qi, "Neither Yes nor No", The codeless code
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