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Subject: Re: [legaldocml] Re: [akomantoso-xml] FRBRcountry

Hi Mark,

the FRBR Akoma Ntoso country code is the country of the sovereignty (legislative system). In this case we need simply to record who is the authority and the country.
The jurisdiction is a very juridical concept that is more complex and more close how and where to apply the law (judiciary system). In this case we need to define the legal concept of applicability of the law.

"the international independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign dictation; also a political society, or state, which is sovereign and independent."

"The power and authority constitutionally conferred upon (or constitutionally recognized as existing in) a court or judge to pronounce the sentence of the law, or to award the remedies provided by law, upon a state of facts, proved or admitted, referred to the tribunal for decision, and authorized by law to be the subject of investigation or action by that tribunal, and in favor of or against persons (or a res) who present themselves, or who are brought, before the court in some manner sanctioned by law as proper and sufficient. "
Read more: What is JURISDICTION? definition of JURISDICTION (Black's Law Dictionary)

Examples of jurisdiction definition inside of the norms:
Jurisdiction and procedure. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/section/15
(1)The jurisdiction conferred by sections 7 to 14 is exercisable by the High Court or a county court or, in Scotland, by the Court of Session or the sheriff.

<FRBRcountry value="UKM"/> in case of UK Parliament
(1)Part 1 extends to the whole of the United Kingdom (unless otherwise specifically provided). .
(2)Parts 2 to 4 extend to England and Wales only. .
(3)In Part 5— .
(a)sections 44 to 62 extend to England and Wales only; .
(b)section 63 extends to the whole of the United Kingdom. .
(4)In this Part— .
(a)section 64 and Schedule 5 extend to England and Wales only; and .
(b)the remaining provisions extend to the whole of the United Kin

The jurisdiction define the court (and the state) where the crime/fact should be evaluated and where the law is applicable (applicability).
The sovereignty is the state able to endorse law and regulation.

Akoma Ntoso take in care only to the sovereignty that delivers the document. So the property is at the document level.
The jurisdiction depends to the norm interpretation, it depends to the type of crimes, it depends to the citizenship of the person, etc. so it is too much complex and we are modelling this concept and the related rules in LegalRuleML, not in LegalDocML.

I hope that I have add more elements for the comprehension of the tag:
<FRBRcountry value="UKM"/> in case of UK Parliament
<FRBRcountry value="SCT"/> in case of Scottish Ministry for this order

but please if it is not enough clear or if we are missing something please send your comments.
We need your contributions.


Il 21/11/2012 17:15, Jones, Mark (LNG-LON) ha scritto:
Hi Fabio,

I did see that there are ISO 3166 codes for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so it looks like we're covered in that regard.

However, as well as potentially needing the Akoma Ntoso schema to allow multiple codes to cover combinations of these four jurisdictions, we also need to be able to define different jurisdictions for different sections of an Act. As far as I can tell you can currently only assign one country code to the whole document when, in the case of the UK, you actually have the need to assign multiple and differing jurisdictions separately at Part, Chapter, Section, Paragraph etc level. So we'd need jurisdiction metadata available at every level if that isn't currently available in the schema.



ps The difference between GB and UK is that Great Britain refers to the island made up of England, Wales and Scotland (so not including Northern Ireland) while the United Kingdom refers to the country that also includes Northern Ireland.

-----Original Message-----
From: Fabio Vitali [mailto:fabio@cs.unibo.it] 
Sent: 14 November 2012 17:23
To: Jones, Mark (LNG-LON)
Cc: Ashok Hariharan; akomantoso-xml@googlegroups.com; legaldocml@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [legaldocml] Re: [akomantoso-xml] FRBRcountry

Dear Mark, 

wow, this is though. Values for element FRBRcountry have three important constraints, and I hope we can find a way to satisfy all three at the same time: 

1) Values must be taken from the ISO 3166 (alpha-2) country codes, when existing (which is difficult in and by itself, as ISO 3166 only maps countries that existed from 1974 onward, and if we have a piece of legislation still enacted but coming from a country that stopped existing before 1974, we have problems). 
2) Values must be short enough so as to be re-usable in the Work URIs as their first fragment 
3) They must, you know, identify the country and/or jurisdiction of the document. 

ISO 3166 is by no means complete. It only lists countries existing in 1974 and onward (so when we'll be dealing with past countries, we will have to invent something). ISO 3166-2 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2 ) has most sub-country jurisdictions (US states, Italian regions and provinces, German Ländern, etc.). 

For UK ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB ), we have codes the four main countries (actually, two separate codes for Welsh, in English and Welsh), plus "England: 27 two-tier counties, 32 London boroughs, 36 metropolitan districts, 55 unitary authorities, 1 city corporation. Northern Ireland: 26 districts, Scotland: 32 council areas, Wales: 22 unitary authorities". We also have codes for England and Wales, Great Britain and United Kingdom (the difference between the latter two somehow escapes me, but anyhow). 

To summarize, my opinion is this: 

1) if we have an appropriate code in ISO 3166-1 or ISO 3166-2, we should use it. 
2) If we do not have an appropriate code, we should invent one with a special syntax
3) If we need multiple codes, currently the standard does not allow multiple FRBRCountry. If the need really exist, we should modify the standard. 

Hope this clarifies. 




On 14/nov/2012, at 15.13, Jones, Mark (LNG-LON) wrote:

Hi guys,
Following on from this earlier discussion around the usage of the FRBRcountry element in terms of its use for non-country jurisdictions (e.g. California), as I understand it this is to be used to indicate "the country or jurisdiction to be used in the work-level URI of this document".
In the case of UK Acts, they are created by the UK Parliament and will have jurisdiction over England but may not have jurisdiction over Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. I think this can apply at the overall Act level but the differences in jurisdiction are often within Acts with sections only applying to e.g. England and Wales.
An example of this is http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/22 with the Parts of the Act applying to different jurisdictions:
- Part I: England and Wales
- Part II: England and Wales
- Part III: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland
- Part IV: England and Wales
- Part V: England, Wales and Scotland
- Part VI: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland
And even with these Parts there are sections with even more granularity in terms of jurisdiction.
How does Akoma Ntoso deal with this kind of complicated situation, where different sections of an Act have differing jurisdictions? I assume the FRBRcountry element would need to be defined as gb/uk with additional metadata to indicate the jurisdictional information throughout the document.
From: legaldocml@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:legaldocml@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Ashok Hariharan
Sent: 13 July 2012 11:23
To: akomantoso-xml@googlegroups.com; legaldocml@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [legaldocml] Re: [akomantoso-xml] FRBRcountry
Here is an earlier clarification of such a case from monica :


On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:37 AM, Grantcv1 <grant.vergottini@gmail.com> wrote:
The FRBRcountry element prescribes ISO 3166-1 values for the country or the jurisdiction. In Monica's sample for California, she uses a value of "us" for the value of this element. I have a bit of a problem with this. The jurisdiction of this law is California, not the US. That California is part of the US isn't particularly relevent to the document. Shouldn't the FRBRcountry element really identify the jurisdicition that the law applies to - and then be able to handle jurisdictions that aren't countries?
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Fabio Vitali                            Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly,
Dept. of Computer Science        Man got to sit and wonder "Why, why, why?'
Univ. of Bologna  ITALY               Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land,
phone:  +39 051 2094872              Man got to tell himself he understand.
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