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Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee
Good luck telling that to judges who are busy in the courtroom and are used to page breaks during oral argument with line references, not paragraphs, in my experience. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > Date: Wed, August 17, 2005 8:36 am > To: "'Bergeron, Donald L. (LNG-DAY)'" <Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com>, > 'Dallas Powell' <dpowell@tybera.com>, John Messing > <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org, 'Rex McElrath' > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > I am someone who's formatted and set up a zillion documents intended for others to receive electronically and display on their own equipment, and, from my perspective, paragraph IDs have a great deal of appeal for referencing purposes. Some other points about using paragraph IDs as reference points: > > Even though it is the intention of the author of a document that lines consistently break at the same word, that page breaks occur exactly for everyone, and that line numbering be as predictable as Chapter and Verse in scriptures, it is fallible word processors who set up the actual pages. > > Inserted graphics, printing with "squeeze" or "shrink" features on (resulting in fonts that are fractional, e.g., 9.5), having different fonts sharing the same name, printers with different capabilities, and so on -- all such things can prevent documents being exactly the same when displayed by different people on different equipment. > > Let's also remember the person with a visual impairment who may need to display a document with a larger font. The person may not have access to equipment to magnify the image of the document, keeping it in its original, smaller font, in order to preserve line numbering, etc. A paragraph that is displayed in a much larger font (or that has been translated to a different language!) would carry with it the same paragraph ID no matter what is being done by the recipient when viewing the document. > > Roger Winters > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bergeron, Donald L. (LNG-DAY) [mailto:Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:48 AM > To: 'Dallas Powell'; John Messing; Winters, Roger > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > I second Dallas's comment. Paragraphs are often the basis for public domain > citations for the same reasons. > > > > Regards, > > Don > > Donald L. Bergeron > Systems Designer > LexisNexis > donald.bergeron@lexisnexis.com > O 937-865-1276 > H 937-748-2775 > M 937-672-7781 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dallas Powell [mailto:dpowell@tybera.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:31 PM > To: John Messing; Winters,Roger > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > Subject: Re: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > PDF and XSLT do not include the functions of a formatter. It is the > formatter that paginates, line wraps, and determines spacing based on font > faces, font sizes, kerning, and line space settings not XSLT or PDF. > > Within XSLT you could insert a page marker based on some element and a givin > condition of that element, but, it is the formatter that keeps track of the > line lengths, spacing, wrapping, margins, and pagination that make the > proper insert. The elements (tags) alone do not provide adequate > information to make those types of decisions. > > That is a motivating factor behind going to paragraphs. Paragraphs can > contextually be marked with elements, giving ID and IDrefs, which provides a > markup based reference rather than a formatted based reference. > > Dallas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Messing" <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > To: "Winters,Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > Cc: <legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org>; "'Rex McElrath'" > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:28 PM > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > I haven't found any statistics on the subject but from my experience > > anecdotally, I think lawyers and judges still refer to page and line of > > a document. Only PDF supports doing that electronically in my own > > experience, but fortunately PDF documents can be generated directly > > using XSLT from XML documents. > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > > > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > > Date: Mon, August 08, 2005 4:11 pm > > > To: 'John Messing' <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org, 'Rex McElrath' > > > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > > > > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > I appreciate the concern over everyone literally "being on the same > page" when viewing electronic court documents, since precise references are > quite important. Years ago, there was some discussion, perhaps at a > theoretical level only, of using techni > > ques like paragraph numbering as an alternative to referencing page and > line numbers. Is anyone aware of whether that idea or anything like it has > ever caught on with anyone as an approach to the reference problem? > > > > > > Roger Winters > > > King County > > > Department of Judicial Administration > > > Continuing Legal Education (CLE) Coordinator > > > and > > > Programs and Projects Manager > > > 516 Third Avenue, E-609 MS: KCC-JA-0609 > > > Seattle, Washington 98104 > > > V: (206) 296-7838 F: (206) 296-0906 > > > roger.winters@metrokc.gov > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: John Messing [mailto:jmessing@law-on-line.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:39 PM > > > To: Winters, Roger > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue > W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > One of the transforms that could be envisioned uses XSLT-FO to output > > > PDF binary files directly from the XML of a court document constructed > > > around the input messaging parameters. An advantage of this approach is > > > pagination. One limitation of other human viewer methods, such as XML, > > > HTML or even RTF (i.e., viewable in Word or Wordperfect) is that screen > > > resolution will affect pagination. In a courtroom environment, it will > > > become intolerable for an advocate to have information on one page > > > while the same information on the court's screen will be found on a > > > different page. PDF output prevents that result by having pagination > > > the same on all machines. > > > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > > > John Messing > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > > > > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > > > Date: Mon, August 08, 2005 3:18 pm > > > > To: 'Rex McElrath' <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue > Work of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > Hello, Rex, > > > > > > > > I'm glad you've taken initiative with this proposal. I realize there > is much involved with which I am unfamiliar, but it seems this is exactly > the work that should be done to help realize a long-standing goal, at least > for some of the court clerks w > > ho got involved with LegalXML early on. > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you or others can guide me in finding some introductory > material for the less technically adept people, explaining some of the > subject matter with which we may be unfamiliar, specifically: > > > > > > > > > > > In your modernization of my formula to "GJXDM -> Information Exchange > Package + XSL Style Sheet and/or XSL Transform and/or XSL Formatting Objects > = Human-Readable Document" - I have a high level familiarity with GJXDM, but > not with IEPs or XSL Form > > atting Objects. I have a high level understanding only of the other > elements (XSL Style Sheets and XSL Transform). > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that part of the motivation is that in some e-filing > implementations there are essentially two different documents involved > submitted: a human-readable (e.g., PDF) and a data file for processing. This > apparently creates a situation wher > > e it is a problem that the two might not be an exact match. While I agree > this work should help solve that problem, I would think that the "norm" for > e-filing would be a single document that includes all marked up data > elements and whatever is required > > to present the document in human-readable form (e.g., appropriate style > sheet), plus (of course) everything else relating to signatures, security, > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > You mention a deliverable in September, "a draft of a methodology to > reproduce for other documents and refinement and expansion of the > functionality of the methods used to create the first document package" - I > think that directions in plain languag > > e will be among the most valuable items this project might produce. I'd > like to use my writing and editing skills to help develop such > materials--but I have to understand the subject matter first. Ultimately, > the process has to be something easily expla > > ined to non-technical people. > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for getting this started. > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger Winters > > > > King County > > > > Department of Judicial Administration > > > > Continuing Legal Education (CLE) Coordinator > > > > and > > > > Programs and Projects Manager > > > > 516 Third Avenue, E-609 MS: KCC-JA-0609 > > > > Seattle, Washington 98104 > > > > V: (206) 296-7838 F: (206) 296-0906 > > > > roger.winters@metrokc.gov > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rex McElrath [mailto:mcelratr@gaaoc.us] > > > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:45 PM > > > > To: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > Subject: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue > Work of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > Feedback Request/Request to Continue Work of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I've talked with the Chairs of this TC and some of the members about > reviving the Documents Subcommittee and am submitting this email to the full > TC in request of feedback and as a motion to continue the work of the > Documents Subcommittee. > > > > > > > > > > > I have been researching the work by Dr. Leff, work done on the Rap > Sheet, the current Court Documents specification, and other related work for > reference material and believe the existing goals of the Documents > Subcommittee are possible for use with > > the new Information Exchange Packages (IEP's) promoted by GJXDM > Guidelines with the XML transform and stylizing technology that is available > today. > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of the electronic documents from early on in LegalXML was, > as Roger Winters explained it: > > > > > > > > (DTD-a standard XML vocabulary -> Document Capable of Automated Data > Processing) + XSL Style Sheet = Human-Readable Document > > > > > > > > > > > The updated form of this concept for the subcommittee would be > something like: > > > > > > > > GJXDM -> Information Exchange Package + XSL Style Sheet and/or XSL > Transform and/or XSL Formatting Objects = Human-Readable Document > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a summary statement of why to bring back the work of the Documents > Subcommittee, it compliments the current work of the larger committee and of > the Justice community in that it takes the Information Exchange Packages > built out of XML data and tra > > nslates the data into a human viewable document. > > > > > > > > > > > Example Reasons for Pursuing Fully XML Based Documents With Human > Readable Views in the Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > * Create less of a need to verify manually that the data sent in to > the case management system is the same as is in the human viewable version > > > > > > > > > > > * Allow document management and creation functions to become able to > be much more flexible and robust due to the contents of the documents being > able to be understood by the machine more than a straight binary > (PDF/DOC/etc) file would be > > > > > > > > > > > * Facilitation of automated reasoning systems > > > > > > > > * For large law firms and executive branch agencies, there is more of > a carrot to adopt e-filing as their forms creation process is more > simplified and they can improve the intelligence and reuse of their > documents easier with the contents marked up > > with XML > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Outline of Plan for Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > Objectives: > > > > > > > > * Main: Develop a base set of IEP's with human presentable transforms > for display. > > > > * Secondary: If appropriate and open methods are found, or developed, > then formulate an updated Court Document Specification that uses schemas and > newer formatting technology. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Documents to Start Working With as Examples: > > > > > > > > Dr. Leff, of Western Illinois University, and some of his students > have produced several court documents with transforms into HTML. This work > is viewable at http://www.wiu.edu/users/mflll/CriminalJusticeZoo.html. > > > > > > > > > > > The AOC in Georgia has many Child Support Enforcement related > documents that are being diagrammed, mapped to IEP guideline compliant > schema, and then mapped to transforms and style sheets to make them usable > for data exchange between systems and for > > human presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Work for the Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > The Documents Subcommittee of the OASIS LegalXML Court Filing > Technical Committee will be needed for domain expert knowledge of both > courts and XML technologies for use in vetting the electronic documents and > the methods used to produce the electron > > ic documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Draft Timeline for Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > August 5th - Submit information about plans for the Subcommittee to > full TC on list serve > > > > > > > > August 19th - Submit Example Document Package with schemas, > transforms, and style sheets and draft explanation of method used to > produce. > > > > > > > > > > > August 19th-September 2nd- Comment and Revision Period > > > > > > > > September 9th - Submission of Revised Document Package and a draft of > a methodology to reproduce for other documents and refinement and expansion > of the functionality of the methods used to create the first document > package. > > > > > > > > > > > September 9th-September 30th - Comment and Revision Period > > > > > > > > September 12th- Submit summary report to main TC list serve > > > > > > > > October 14th- Submit revised document package with updated > documentation > > > > > > > > October 28th - Subcommittee Conference call and vote on whether to > move forward with preparing an updated Court Documents Specification or > whether more work needs to be done for methodology to create documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your time in looking over this proposal for reviving the > Documents Subcommittee. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Rex McElrath > > > > Judicial Council > > > > Administrative Office of the Courts > > > > 244 Washington St. SW, Ste 300 > > > > Atlanta, GA 30334 > > > > 404-657-9218 > > > > mcelratr@gaaoc.us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for > > > > the use of the entity or individual(s) to whom they are addressed and > > > > not for reliance upon by unintended recipients. 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