RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up Documents

[John Messing <jmessing@law-on-line.com>]

It might be helpful to find out if the vendors could support such an
approach. I believe Wolters-Kluwer has done some work in this area.
James? Brian? Any thoughts?


> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up
> Documents
> From: "O'Brien, Robert" <Robert.OBrien@cas-satj.gc.ca>
> Date: Tue, January 09, 2007 5:05 pm
> To: <legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org>
> 
> "These should be extracted from free text if possible by allowing text
> to
> flow around the tags for these data points."
> 
> Yes, I think you've got it John. Roger, do you see it thusly?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Messing [mailto:jmessing@law-on-line.com] 
> Sent: January 9, 2007 7:04 PM
> To: O'Brien, Robert
> Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up Documents
> 
> I distill from this exchange the following:
> 
> Data points for extraction must be established and in many cases made
> mandatory.
> 
> These should be extracted from free text if possible by allowing text to
> flow around the tags for these data points.
> 
> The remaining free text should be stored as needed for future reference.
> 
> Sounds like a CMS and DMS to me.
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up
> > Documents
> > From: "O'Brien, Robert" <Robert.OBrien@cas-satj.gc.ca>
> > Date: Tue, January 09, 2007 3:11 pm
> > To: <legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > 
> > I don't disagree at all with John M: we must walk a fine line / create
> a
> > balance between the Courts' sometimes almost insatiable need for data
> > for its CMS vs. the breaking point of e-filers for the amount of data
> > entry that can reasonably be expected of them with their filings ---
> > lest they simply revert to what they perceive as less onerous paper
> > filings. Also agree with John re: maintaining the lawyer's look and
> feel
> > of his document. It's one reason many e-filing installations opt for
> PDF
> > as the submitted document format, to lock down counsel's presentation.
> > 
> > What I believe Roger and I are suggesting is that there is still ample
> > opportunity to PAINLESSLY extract data from e-filers via marked-up
> > documents. Let me give the breakdown of a typical example of a docket
> > entry for an Affidavit document:
> > 
> > Affidavit of: John Smith
> > Sworn on: January 3, 2007
> > Before: R.H. Talbot, Commissioner of Oaths
> > Filed on behalf of: the Defendant ABC Co. 
> > In Opposition to: Motion for Particulars of counterclaim
> > Attached: Exhibits A-F 
> > Submitted pursuant to: special order of Judge Jones allowing extension
> > of time to respond until January 9, 2009
> > 
> > Currently, we are not getting all of that information from the legal
> > envelope itself. And that may be fine, because if the e-filer had to
> > answer additional onscreen data fields --- in addition to having
> already
> > entered it when he or she typed up the document itself --- then our
> > e-filer might just walk away and return to the paper filing world
> where
> > no one seems to bother him so.
> > 
> > But this standard information the Courts crave is already all there
> > within the Affidavit document itself, just waiting to be harvested. It
> > is important to stress this point: it is ALREADY there, albeit in free
> > form and perhaps scattered about the doc. 
> > 
> > By marking up the document to contain a few tags that would convey
> this
> > info to us for parsing, the Court and Clerk's Office would see a
> > completely automated docket entry creation - the Holy Grail from their
> > perspective. 
> > 
> > Yet the attorney is still free to insert all sorts of free-form of
> > argument as John rightly contends. The few strategic tags that the
> > Courts would require would not interfere with counsel's creativeness
> nor
> > with the overall presentation of his document.
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Messing [mailto:jmessing@law-on-line.com] 
> > Sent: January 8, 2007 9:25 PM
> > To: O'Brien, Robert
> > Cc: john@greacen.net; Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV;
> > legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up
> Documents
> > 
> > I think the needs of lawyers need to acknowledged. The filings for
> them
> > are ways to influence a judge's or jury's decision. If they feel put
> > into a strait-jacket for extraneous reasons, they may feel that
> > electronic filing is an obstacle, rebel and complain to the judges. A
> > way to prevent such an outcome, which I think would be disasterous for
> > electronic court filing, is to assure that free-form of argument is
> > available somewhere within a document. It may not even be persistent
> > data from the perspective of the court administration, but it is a
> > matter of record and will require preservation nontheless. It could be
> > stored as a single blob or as some kind of character data. But it will
> > need to be included, to avoid real trouble, IMHO.
> > 
> > 
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up
> > > Documents
> > > From: "O'Brien, Robert" <Robert.OBrien@cas-satj.gc.ca>
> > > Date: Mon, January 08, 2007 7:09 pm
> > > To: <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV>,
> > > <legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > Cc: <john@greacen.net>
> > > 
> > > As a fellow representative of the Court User domain, I
> wholeheartedly
> > > endorse Roger's sentiments. Many Court staff and managers don't even
> > > want to hear about e-filing unless it will save them work (e.g. the
> > area
> > > of case management system data entry). 
> > > 
> > > We must try to leverage more from e-filing in this regard.
> > > 
> > > Robert O'B
> > > Courts Administration Service 
> > > Ottawa Canada
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV [mailto:Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV] 
> > > Sent: December 24, 2006 8:34 PM
> > > To: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Cc: john@greacen.net
> > > Subject: [legalxml-courtfiling] Charter: Mention Marked-Up Documents
> > > 
> > > Hello, John, and members of the List,
> > > 
> > > In perusing the draft revised Charter, I have realized we haven't
> > > stressed that it is a goal of the TC to develop XML documents that
> > would
> > > be marked up in such a way as to automate data extraction and
> > eliminate
> > > duplicative data entry for court filings. Accordingly, I propose
> that
> > > the draft Charter revision be amended to include language such as:
> > > 
> > > "the TC intends to develop techniques and principles for creating
> XML
> > > legal documents for the purpose of data capture and re-use without
> > > manual re-entry, across a broad spectrum of uses, including court
> > > filings."
> > > 
> > > I hope others will endorse this added purpose and, if anyone has
> > better
> > > language, please offer it. 
> > > 
> > > Thanks!
> > > 
> > > Roger
> > > 
> > > Roger Winters
> > > King County