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Subject: Aug. 3, 2004 Draft minutes
Folks, Below are the draft minutes if our last (Aug. 3) meeting. Please let me know if there are any errors or omissions. Thanks, Dave Marvit Fujitsu Labs of America Fujitsu ------------------------------------------ LegalXML eContracts TC August 3, 2004 Meeting Draft Minutes In attendance: Dan Greenwood Rolly Chambers Zoran Milosevic Dave Marvit Jason Harrop Eddie Obrien John McClure Peter Meyer Dr. Leff Dan suggests that we discuss requirements first. We have 2 items before us today, the structural markup specification and the requirements doc. I am indifferent as to which we handle first. Any opinions? Zoran: I'd suggest the requirements doc. Dan: Great, Rolly..? Rolly: Earlier we began working through an initial draft and were discussing whether we needed more work on the initial draft. The consensus was that it would help. Peter offered to help out. We thought it would help to review the scenarios and draw out through revision the things to include in a better set of requirements. Then Peter and I both got tied up with other tasks. From my perspective I don't think that I could address these issues on my own. Zoran has offered to pitch in. In terms of the state of the requirements doc, it needs more work. The issue I want consensus on is how to best proceed with this "more work". Zoran: I was hoping to work on this, but there has been a lot of posting on the list about this and it has slowed me down. I am hoping to catch up... Jason: The thing that is slowing us down is that there are things that need to be discussed. It won't be easy for anyone to put another draft together and get consensus. Whatever they put together there will be controversial issues. We need to resolve these issues through discussion. Peter: I agree with Jason. We need to work out the very basis of what we are trying to do. We need to take a very hard nosed look at what we are trying to achieve from a commercial view for a standard. That may be best done, as Jason suggested, by actually going through the use cases. Dave: How about having another face to face in Monterey? Dan: [initiates a discussion of logistics] Dr. Leff: 19th and 20th are the possibilities. Z; We need to discuss things first. Peter: I think it would be important to discuss the issues and the process before hand [before the event]. I'm not sure if I can make it. Dan: I think everyone agrees that you can get a lot more done when in person, and then can coast for a while after that. I would be comfortable getting some subsidies from the steering committee to offset some of the costs... Dan: Jason, were you planning to come to the conference [being held in Monterey at that time]? Jason: I wasn't planning on it, but would certainly consider it. Dan: [Takes a census of who might be able to go...] Wow, that's a lot of people. What could we do to make it more efficient while we are there? Peter: I think we could identify the kinds of transactions and the kinds of analysis of the kinds of transactions. Dan: So, one of the things we can do leading up to the face 2 face would be to come up with a method that we would apply at the face to face. The methodology. And then, when we get there, actually do it. Dave: I'd like to see the differences of opinions clearly stated. I am finding it hard to extract them and make evaluations. Zoran Yes. Dan: So, it would be fruitful to crisply define the existing differences of opinion. [some discussion about clarifying differences of opinion that exist] Dr. Leff: It seems to be a difference of priorities. If the resources were less limited then we could do it all. But that's not practical Dan: John, Dave posed the question to you as well. Do you think it would be fruitful to crisp up the differences. John: It would be useful but it might be a lengthy process. [...] My hope has been that the notion of a minority report may be an effective process on the requirements side as well. Dan: Any other thought on what could be done fruitfully before a face to face? Zoran: Peter has put together a bunch of use cases. That would be helpful to work with. Me and Rolly ... we can crystalize ideas and be ready to discuss requirements at the face to face. We need to provide further input to Rolly. Jason: It would be nice if the next face to face could start with the things that were achieved at the last face to face instead of starting all over again. Dan: Do you mean... Peter: We shouldn't be pulling out the requirements. We should be going back to the beginning and ... Jason: I was thinking that the use cases that were worked on while we were in Sydney... that material should be put together so that it can be discussed at the face to face. But, as Peter said, an overall framework should be put in place before the meetings. Dan: That would be more of an abstraction and a refinement than the list of use cases. Zoran: I was not at the Sydney meeting. To what extent did these find their way into the requirements doc? Peter: It didn't. They were posted, and they were also sent to Rolly. Zoran: But how did they get into the requirements doc? Peter: The requirements doc didn't include them. Rolly: The draft that is out there ... I did try to include it. It is in the narrative section only. I don't want Peter to think that it was not useful and appreciated. Dan: It requires a lot of judgment to pull out the bullets. It is the kind of process that shold be done collectively. The process of synthesizing them is inherently a group process. I think that is what you, Peter, are saying. Peter: A face to face is the place to do it, as long as we aren't spending our time there trying to determine what we should be doing there. Maybe I should put together a high level description -- sort of a classic problem analysis. Then others can say that these are the wrong problems and so on. Would that be a good approach? Zoran: Yes. I think that Jason sent something out before we even did the scenarios. Jason: It was one of the first scenarios -- a scenario document Peter: If we can agree on a model, then we can agree on a fairly simplified but representative use cases. Dave: What should we aim to get done before the face to face as compared to during? Peter: I think we should have the model and the use cases, but not much more before the meeting. At the meeting we could work on the priorities. Then we could work through each one and address the questions that are going to be asked. That will throw up a number of controversial issues. Dan: So it is model, template for each use case, then we can collapse or toss use cases, and then prioritize them at the face to face. Is that agreeable to all? Dr. Leff: Many of us have different objectives and those are represented by the different use cases. Some may have more or less urgency. Where there is someone ready to start coding that may be considered an indication of urgency. Then you get into the argument of urgency versus importance. Peter: That is correct, but we will need to make those judgments down the track. The process will help us determine the common needs. Dan: Everyone seems to agree that we shold do this. I'd like to propose: 1. We have a face to face meeting around the time of the COALA meeting [in Monterey] and try to get as many key players to come as we can, including subsidies for those who need it. We should aim to get closure on the requirements process. Leading up to the meeting we work to come up to a template to enable apples to apples comparisons of the use cases. 2. We ask the proponents of each use case to do a draft filling in the template. Then, at the meeting, we can collapse them where it makes sense, prioritize them as it makes sense. Then we can extract requirements where appropriate. Dr. Leff: Should we put liaising opportunities and resources on the agenda? Dave: Can that be done by phone? Dan: Amend this to: Include the above points on the agenda and add other items as appropriate and as time allows. Dan: if no-one objects, then I will make it an actual motion. Peter: I'll second John: What I am hearing is that the authors of scenarios will be given a new template to put their use case into. Dan: I would imagine something of not more than a page. Peter: Yes. The first issue is to settle on a template. Dan: But you agree with what John said? Peer: Yes Dan: And John, what you said is my understanding as well. John: And each author could submit more than one use case? Dan(and others): That's fine. Dr. Leff: Although the scenarios seem to cover a most relevant areas for our standard, there is one scenario that is missing which is the use of our standard for accounting systems. Dan: Zoran, is it safe to say that we can get there from your enterprise scenario... Did you submit one? Zoran: We did one with rolly on Dispute resolution Dan: Right, it was the contract management scenario? Jason? Jason: Yes, we can ... Dan: Let's assume that it could be cobbled together from the use cases we already have. Zoran, your system has hooks... Zoran: Not at the level that Dr. Leff is discussing. Dan: dr, Leff, could I nominate you for this? Dr. Leff: I will chat with some accounting professors here. But that's about all that I can do. This is not my area of expertise. Jason: We can't be all things to all people. If we don't have the expertise in a given area then we may need to just let it go. John: I think the issue is who is being tasked to draft what use cases. Dan: Let's agree to work out who does what use cases on the list. Then we can do a gap analysis. Peter, would you do us the honor of writing up the questions that will form the basis of our template? Peter, no problem. Dan: Dave, Please add to the motion that Peter will get it out for comments by Friday. Dave: OK. Dan calls for a vote. [unanimous agreement on the motion] Dan: We are near the end of the hour., and we haven't addressed the issues brought to us by the structural committee. Do you think that the process we are discussing will work through those. Peer: If other TC members feel they are in a position to put those issues to bed. That would be one way of approaching it. If people don't feel comfortable with that, then we can put those issues (structural) on hold, and move forward on the requirements. Zoran: A lot of the discussion depends on what is in XHTML2 and RDF. I'd rather see more emphasis on what we are trying to solve rather than how can we use this standard or that standard. We don't know how to deal with these issues. John: I am having trouble hearing Zoran: Dan: Zoran was saying that the level of technical detail is so nuanced that it is difficult and time consuming to understand, and that it would help us a lot to understand what we are trying to achieve first. Zoran: Sure, but there is a danger in doing that and slowing down the process. I'd like to find another solution that would not slow us down. Jason: I'd like to see a conversation about the high level structure. Peter and I put work into our model and so has John. People have put effort into understanding that email traffic. I'd hate to put it aside and run the risk of forgetting it. I'd like to suggest that we have a discussion about it. It should help us understand the issues before us. Dave suggested that there is a process starting from the differences and looking backwards, that might be useful. Zoran: I agree. Dr. Leff: there is an issue about how these standards interact. But there is another issue. I am having trouble getting my mind around what software people want to write and how does that effect things. I could author in vi and that would short circuit some of these issues. We can't describe the data until we understand what software is being written to manipulate the data. Dan: That might be a column for Peter's template -- just a place where we can surface some of that. But it sounds like there is an appetite to discuss the high level containers and not wait for the face to face. Now that we have a formal decision about how to proceed with he requirements doc, I'd propose that we have a discussion 1 or 2 weeks from today. Does anyone disagree with 1 week from today? John: I can't make it monday or tuesday of next week. Dan: Would Wed, Aug 11th at 6 pm EST be OK? [Seems to be OK] Dan: Any objection to adjourning? John: There was an item on the agenda to discuss an RDF format? Dan: Can we postpone that until next week? John: No problem. Dan Anything else? Zoran: Any logistics for the face to face meeting? Dan: Let's aim for 2 days. Before or after? [Scheduling discussion] Dan proposes that we have formal meetings on the 19th and 20th and perhaps have an informal meeting on the 18th. We will deal with hotels and stuff offline... Zoran: I can help you (Dan) liaise with the eDoc organizers. Dan: We have done a lot. I'd propose we adjourn now. [Agreed. Meeting adjourned.]
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