OASIS Mailing List ArchivesView the OASIS mailing list archive below
or browse/search using MarkMail.


Help: OASIS Mailing Lists Help | MarkMail Help

mqtt message

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]

Subject: Re: [mqtt] Recharter: Shared subscriptions and $share

Hi Nick,
If I've understood your comment correctly, you are suggesting that a topic starting with the prefix "$shared" would actually treat all subscriptions as shared subscriptions. Unfortunately, I think that's a really bad idea. It's gone from N publishers->M subscribers to N publishers->1 subscription->M consumers. That's not pub/sub - it's just a queue with multiple consumers.

In a publish/subscribe system, ideally I want the publishers to be totally unaware of the number and availability of the subscribers. By having this rule for "$shared", if I want to use workload balancing among a set of consumers, I have to publish on a topic starting "$shared" and each message published can be consumed by at most one consumer. I can no longer dream up another purpose for the messages and add another subscription - it would just end up getting a small share of the existing shared subscription.

What I would seek to enable is exactly what you didn't like: I want subscribers that can take all of the messages to be able to have them all, and subscribers who cannot keep up with the message rate to be able to share the stream of messages with like-minded consumers.

So, I think sharing is a property of the subscription, not the topic. I prefer having a separate share name which is not part of the topic name.


Andrew Schofield                                              
Chief Architect, Hybrid Cloud Messaging
Senior Technical Staff Member
IBM Cloud Application Services

IBM United Kingdom Limited
Mail Point 211
Hursley Park
SO21 2JN

Phone ext. 37248357 (External:+44-1962-818357), DE2J22
Internet mail: andrew_schofield@uk.ibm.com

From:        Nicholas O'Leary/UK/IBM@IBMGB
To:        mqtt@lists.oasis-open.org
Date:        08/04/2016 19:46
Subject:        [mqtt] Recharter: Shared subscriptions and $share
Sent by:        <mqtt@lists.oasis-open.org>

There are two fundamental approaches here.

1. The client chooses whether a subscription is shared or not
2. The ‘shared’ nature is a property of the topic itself

If the client gets to choose, then you need to define what happens if clients A and B subscribe to topic foo with the shared flag set, but client C subscribes without the shared flag set. I think trying to support that type of combination would overly complicate implementations. We could say that in that scenario client C’s sub is rejected, but it doesn’t feel like the right approach to me.

I think it is much cleaner for the shared nature to be a pre-existing property of the topic - in that way no changes are needed in client implementations at all, as demonstrated by the fact some broker implementations already support shared subs within the confines of 3.1.1.

The question is then whether it should be done by virtue of a well-known topic prefix - $shared, or have it as a property on the topic that can be administratively set on the broker.

The advantage of the latter is that any topic could be set as a shared topic - and would be within the constraints of our charter to not define topic spaces. The downside is it requires administrative action to use the feature - something that isn’t required anywhere else in the protocol. To deploy a new application that requires a shared sub would now require co-ordinated administrative action on the broker - that doesn’t feel lightweight to me and would fail the Just Works test that so much of MQTT benefits from.

That brings me to the conclusion that the cleanest solution is to define any topic that is prefixed with $shared as being a shared topic. We shouldn’t let the current text of the charter, which we’re currently redrafting anyway, stop us making the right technical choices for the protocol.

Nick O'Leary
IBM Emerging Technology Services

Twitter: @knolleary

IBM United Kingdom Ltd registered in England and Wales with number 741598 Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hants, PO6 3AU

Brian Raymor --- [mqtt] Recharter: Shared subscriptions and $share ---
From: "Brian Raymor" <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: mqtt@lists.oasis-open.org
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:25
Subject: [mqtt] Recharter: Shared subscriptions and $share

Forwarding to the mailing list for broader awareness and discussion.
The conversation is related to this out-of-scope item in the draft charter:
·       The TC will not identify MQTT topics nor prescribe any mechanism or convention for classification of MQTT topics or topic spaces.
From: Andrew Banks [mailto:andrew_banks@uk.ibm.com]
Friday, April 1, 2016 12:35 PM
Ken Borgendale <kwb@us.ibm.com>
Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
Re: MQTT shared subs and charter

Ken, using the $share topic prefix seems the more natural way to go to me.

To avoid using the $ prefix we would still have to encode the sharename  into the subscribe packet, probably using the same metadata encoding method as for the Publish Metadata. The existence of the sharename should signal the shared subscription and so remove the need to use one of the Qos bits. However, the Subscribe packet can carry multiple subscriptions and SubAck can carry multiple outcomes so that is where it starts to look unnatural.

The $ prefix was reserved in the V3.1.1 specification for uses such as this, and it is being used in practice,  so I think we should alter the charter to make its use allowed.

Andrew Banks
Telephone (44) 1962 816123

Ken Borgendale/Austin/IBM
Andrew Banks/UK/IBM@IBMGB
31/03/2016 22:18
MQTT shared subs and charter

The issue I have with charter and shared subs in the prohibition in the charter of defining topics.  I would prefer to keep this charter limitation but it means that using $shared or any other $ topic to indicate shared subs would not be allowed.  I think it makes much more sense to use one of the bits in the QoS byte of SUBSCRIBE for this purpose.  This is especially true if we also implement nolocal in this way, as there needs to be an explanation of the intersection of shared subs and nolocal.  The problem is that there is no corresponding bit on UNSUBSCRIBE but perhaps we should have an options byte per UNSUBSCRIBE and on UNSUBACK.  This makes them symetical with SUBSCRIBE and allows for a return status on individual UNSUBSCRIBES.

On the issue of shared subs, how you specify shared subs is the simple issue.  Some of the semantics of shared subs are very messy especially any text around overlapping subs and shared subs.

Ken Borgendale  --  
kwb@us.ibm.com    1-207-805-6708  1-207-371-8082
Senior Programmer  --  IBM MessageSight - Architect

Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU

Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]