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Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for URN namespaces



Possibly, my response was poorly communicated. What I was trying to convey is that because a namespace
is an abstraction and not a thing/artefact, that a namespace __document__, something that fully describes
the namespace, is an effective manifestation of the virtual abstract resource (namesapce) that  is identified by
the namespace URI.

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986


"Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 03:21:09 PM:

> RDDL does not help identify; it helps describe and in a highly
> context specific way

>  
> Peter
>  
> From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: 18 June 2007 17:42
> To: Peter F Brown
> Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for
> URN namespaces

>  
>
> Peter, you wrote:
>
> > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find anything
> > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except, well,
> > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced.
>
> If a RDDL isn't someting that helps identify the artefact
> identified, when that artefact is a namespace,
> then I don't know what it is.
>
> A namespace is an abstraction. It has an identifier. A namespace is
> NOT a schema document. I might
> have multiple 'schema' that each are legitimate means of validating
> a document that includes
> elements and attributes for a given namespace (e.g. XML Schema, RNG,
> Schematron, DTD, etc.)
> They may be isomorphic or complimentary in nature.
>
> Having a namespace document (RDDL) available as the resource
> retrieved when you dereference
> the namespace URI helps 'identify the artefact' that is referenced
> by that URI. In the case of the
> namespace documents that have been designed for OASIS specs, the
> informative value is increased by
> virtue of the fact that the specifications which define the
> semantics of the namespace components
> are also linked and the namespace versioning policy is provided.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Ferris
> STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> phone: +1 508 234 2986
>
> "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 10:46:11 AM:
>
> > Of course it all depends on what you want to use the identifier for.
> > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find anything
> > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except, well,
> > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced. An RDDL
> > document is not an identifier - it is a resource descriptor; it is
> > intended to provide information about the identified artifact but, I
> > would argue, is not the only thing that could be relevant at such an
> > end point. As such there *should* be a distinction between the
> > namespace urn and any mechanism to dereference it in a particular
> > context for a particular purpose - whether OASIS provides it os not,
> > is another question.
> >
> > The Topic Map community understands this intimately in their
> > distinction between a "subject identifier" and a "subject indicator"
> > and didn't get lost down the W3C blind alley of confusing labels and
> > resources la RDF... sorry, shouldn't have dragged that up ;-)
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > ==================
> > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> > Sent: 18 June 2007 16:03
> > To: Peter F Brown
> > Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for
> > URN namespaces
> >
> >
> > The OASIS TAB has published guidelines for namespace URIs (amongst
> > other subjects related to
> > metadata) here:
> >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNaming.html
> >
> > These guidelines include recommendation that namespace URIs be HTTP
> > scheme URIs and that there
> > be a published RDDL document at the namespace URI location. URNs are
> > permitted for use, but HTTP
> > scheme URIs are preferred/recommended since they can be resolved
> > without additional machinery. Note
> > that OASIS hs no plans to implement such a resolution mechanism:
> >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNamingCommentaryV07.
> > html#urnResolution
> >
> > An example of these guidelines in action can be found with the WS-RX
> > TC's WS-RM namespace URI:
> >         http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/wsrm/200702
> >
> > Frankly, I don't personally see any material benefit to use of a URN
> > scheme namespace. I suspect that
> > some believe that by using a URN, they have created a 'permanent
> > identifier'. Well, frankly, there is no
> > reason why an HTTP scheme URI cannot be 'permanent'. It isn't as if
> > OASIS is going to drop off the face of
> > the earth anytime soon.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Christopher Ferris
> > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> > phone: +1 508 234 2986
> >
> > "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 09:43:24 AM:
> >
> > > Paul:
> > > I think the objective is laudable but I don't see the point of the
> > > "http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns=" part of the statement. Surely,
> > > if some application wants to do something with the "pure" (and on its
> > > own non-deferenceable) urn, then surely it will ba equipped to make that
> > > call using http get or whatever.
> > >
> > > By effectively tying a namespace to a derefereceable network endpoint
> > > and to specific and prescribed dereferencing mechanism, is there not a
> > > danger that you:
> > > - either limit what can be legitimately found at the network endpoint to
> > > an RDDL file only, cutting out other possible uses of the namespace;
> > > - or creating false expectations and possible architectural problems
> > > when unpredictable results come from finding something other than a RDDL
> > > document at the end of the pipe.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I'd be in favour of a mechanism by which RDDL
> > > documents, when available, can be accessed using a prescribed OASIS
> > > managed URL to which you would tack the namespace urn.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -------------
> > > Peter F Brown
> > > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> > > Founder, Pensive.eu
> > > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> > > Lecturer at XML Summer School
> > > ---
> > > Personal:
> > > +43 676 610 0250
> > > http://public.xdi.org/=Peter.Brown
> > > www.XMLbyStealth.net
> > > www.xmlsummerschool.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paul Denning [mailto:pauld@mitre.org]
> > > Sent: 30 May 2007 18:45
> > > To: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for URN
> > > namespaces
> > >
> > > Some OASIS TC's use an HTTP URI when they define an XML
> > > Namespace.  Some TC's have started using RDDL as a namespace document
> > > when these namespace URI's are dereferenced using HTTP GET.
> > >
> > > Other OASIS TC's use URN's to identify their XML Namespace.
> > >
> > > I suggest that OASIS provide a mechanism to resolve a namespace
> > > document (RDDL or other) using HTTP and passing in the namespace URN
> > > in a query parameter.
> > >
> > > For example,
> > >
> > > http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns=urn:oasis:names:tc:emergency:EDXL
> > > :DE:1.0
> > >
> > > would return a RDDL document associated with the EDXL-DE namespace.
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >


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