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Subject: Re: [office-accessibility] [Fwd: Re: [office] Drawing page names (Re:[office] OpenDocument TC Meeting Minutes 2006-02-13)]


Hi Peter,

I think what we may do is to vote on the proposals in the next TC call, 
but to keep it on the agenda of the SC for the next SC call. If there 
are objections from the SC when, we may still re-visit the topic. This 
way, we can take the topic from the TC's agenda, but also can make sure 
it is reviewed by the SC without requiring any additional calls.  Would 
that work for you?

Best regards

Michael

Peter Korn wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> We ran out of time to discuss this explicit question from the TC in our 
> last meeting.  We touched on it only briefly, and the response was 
> positive (when reviewing the agenda), but then alas we didn't reach it 
> in the agenda.  Unless Rich is able to host a meeting next week when I'm 
> away, we may not have another SC meeting for a few weeks.  We can 
> attempt to resolve this via e-mail discussion if the TC needs an answer 
> fairly soon.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> 
>> Rich, Peter,
>>
>> do I read the minutes from the last SC call correctly that the 
>> proposed changes are fine for the SC?
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
>>> Dear SC members,
>>>
>>> in our recent TC calls we discussed that drawing page names currently 
>>> have to be unique (see section 9.1.4 in the recent ODF 1.2 draft), 
>>> while it in practice sometimes may happen that two pages have the 
>>> same name.
>>>
>>> We discussed several option how to deal with this situation, and the 
>>> last idea is to
>>>
>>> - keep the uniqueness constrain for drawing page names,
>>> - but to add <svg:title> and <svg:description> elements to pages.
>>>
>>> This allows authors to assign the same title to two or more pages if 
>>> they really want to do so for whatever reason, while the names still 
>>> would be unique. It further allows to assign descriptions to pages, 
>>> what is also not possible at the moment.
>>>
>>> I accepted an action item to ask you whether this enhancement would 
>>> be okay for you.
>>>
>>> Malte mentioned that we may add a title and description also to 
>>> spreadsheet tables. While this goes beyond the original request, it 
>>> would be good to know your opinion on this as well.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [office] Drawing page names (Re: [office] OpenDocument 
>>> TC Meeting Minutes 2006-02-13)
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:58:52 +0200
>>> From: Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@Sun.COM>
>>> To: Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg 
>>> <Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM>
>>> CC: David Faure <faure@kde.org>, office@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> References: <43F5F95B.40408@sun.com> 
>>> <200710151133.57410.faure@kde.org> <4718C1D0.5060109@sun.com> 
>>> <4721D955.2090906@sun.com>
>>>
>>> Makes sense for me.
>>>
>>> Matches well with what we have for shapes, and the mapping for
>>> Accessibility API.
>>>
>>> BTW - I propose to have the same for sheets in a spreadsheet:
>>> - Same features for Accessible Name/Description
>>> - Sheet names have much more restrictions because of macro access, so
>>> via the Title people can give them names they otherwise can't.
>>>
>>> Malte.
>>>
>>> Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote, On 10/26/07 14:11:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I have discussed the results of our discussion in the last TC call 
>>>> with Christian. He suggests that we adapt solution B (the 
>>>> draw:display-name) a little, and add <svg:title> and 
>>>> <svg:description> elements instead of a "draw:display-name" 
>>>> attribute. That is, the draw:name attribute would stay unique, but 
>>>> the <svg:title> element could be used to add a non-unique name or 
>>>> title to the page.  The two elements <svg:title> and 
>>>> <svg:description> exist for shapes already. The solution therefore 
>>>> would be consistent with shapes
>>>>
>>>> Christian further suggest that we take first actions to deprecate 
>>>> the draw:id attribute in favour of the new xml:id attribute, by 
>>>> stating that they can only appear together, and must have the same 
>>>> name.
>>>>
>>>> See below for mor details:
>>>>
>>>>> Current Situation
>>>>>
>>>>> a <draw:page> element has the following attributes
>>>>>
>>>>> "draw:id" defined as a unique id for drawing pages. In 
>>>>> OpenOffice.org (OOo), this was never used prior to OOo 2.3.
>>>>> It is currently only used for redundant slide transition information.
>>>>>
>>>>> "draw:name" defined as an optional but unique name. OOo either 
>>>>> writes a programmatic name ("page1", "page2", etc) or
>>>>> a user defined one, which can contain white space. In the xml 
>>>>> format it is used for links referring to slides inside a document
>>>>> and also when defining a custom show. This has the consequence that 
>>>>> such links break if the user renames the slide.
>>>>>
>>>>> a shape element has the following attributes
>>>>>
>>>>> "draw:id" defined as a unique id for shapes. This is used to 
>>>>> identify shapes for animation effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> "draw:name" is an optional attribute. It is not documented if this 
>>>>> has to be unique. In the OOo implementation, shape names
>>>>> are enforced to be unique but only for shapes on one slide. For 
>>>>> historical reasons this is also used for links to shapes in OOo. 
>>>>> This feature
>>>>> breaks if there are multiple shapes with the same name on different 
>>>>> slides.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition a shape has the elements <svg:title> and 
>>>>> <svg:description> to specify text-only description strings for 
>>>>> graphical
>>>>> objects as specified in §5.4 of [SVG]. This was a A11Y requirement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Request for non unique page names
>>>>>
>>>>> The initial request was that the name of a page should not be 
>>>>> enforced to be unique. To be consisted and to fulfill
>>>>> A11Y requirements the <draw:page> element must also have the 
>>>>> elements <svg:title> and <svg:description>.
>>>>> In this context the title could be seen as the display name as 
>>>>> proposed in solution B. For backward compatibility,
>>>>> if no title is given then the name must be used. On the user 
>>>>> interface the title must become what the user normally
>>>>> refers to as the name of the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> A new request would be to prepare a conform way to identify pages 
>>>>> and shape elements inside an odf document.
>>>>> To enable linking to meta information we must have the xml:id 
>>>>> attribute for pages (and optionally for shapes).
>>>>> This would lead to the situation where we have the xml:id, the 
>>>>> draw:id and the draw:name documented as kind
>>>>> of identifiers for pages (and shapes).
>>>>> To have a clean format I propose to add xml:id to both draw:page 
>>>>> and all shape elements. It will be document that
>>>>> draw:id attribute is deprecated and that applications must for now 
>>>>> export the draw:id attribute with the same value
>>>>> as the xml:id element. The attribute draw:id should be removed in a 
>>>>> later version as soon as there is no more demand
>>>>> for backward compatibility. 
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
> 
> 
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-- 
Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


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