RE: [office-collab] Re: OOXML-ODF Use Cases (was RE: [office-collab] Re: Counting in Access Paths)

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>]

Don't put words in our mouths.

That is not the concern that I identified.

John says he has similar concerns to mine.

Perhaps you have a question for John?

Meanwhile, I think an important use case is in how well "native" ODF implementations with MCT can provide an equivalent level of import-export with OOXML (and binaries) to that already demonstrable with current ODF implementations.  In one form, this is the same question as how well can ODF implementations with MCT upgrade and downgrade with documents using ODF 1.2 change-tracking.

These questions apply whether Microsoft does anything or not. They apply to what it is in the ODF TC's ability to address.

Let us address, here, what it is in our power to do anything about.


 - Dennis



-----Original Message-----
From: office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Svante Schubert
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:36
Cc: office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [office-collab] Re: OOXML-ODF Use Cases (was RE: [office-collab] Re: Counting in Access Paths)

Hello Dennis,

I am aware of all those details, the user is not. The user is only
interested in results. The fact is that all ODF change-tracking will be
removed by any MS Office out there. Therefore we can be happy that John
agreed on this concern.
Unless you are representing the same company, I would suggest to let the
implementor speak for himself.

Thank you,
Svante



On 21.10.2012 18:46, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
[ ... ]
>
> On 19.10.2012 13:12, John Haug wrote:
>
>
> 	I have similar concerns, because I haven’t seen yet how they are avoided.  The case of a document with tracked changes being edited by an implementation not supporting CT seems to completely break the referencing model.  See my previous mails from October 1, “Counting issues, etc”.
>
> 	 
>
> 	John
>
> 	 
>
> 	From: office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Robin LaFontaine
> 	Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:05 AM
> 	To: office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	Subject: Re: [office-collab] Re: Counting in Access Paths
>
> 	 
>
> 	I agree with your concerns, Dennis, and am surprised implementors do not seem to worry about this issue. OT has, we are told, been proved to work in a forwards direction when by definition all the 'edits' will be tracked and executed. Working backwards (from existing to previous version, i.e. tracked change) when not all the changes will be tracked, and not all accepted, is a different problem, IMHO. However, it is simple enough (though it will need a good bit of effort) to demonstrate whether or not this is a real concern - we need a specification of how it works and some implementations!
> 	
> 	Robin
>
> 	On 17/10/2012 21:38, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>
> 		I'm having a terminology problem here.
> 		 
> 		As far as I'm concerned, s="/2/10" and e="/3/18" are absolute addresses.  Hierarchical, but absolute, not unlike in absolute URLs.  It's more brittle than in a URL because it is based on counted position, not on labeled hierarchy nodes.  That means insertion and deletion of siblings at every level requires these references to be repaired.  That's scary.
> 		 
> 		On the other hand, to use an existing example, xml:id="ct270478544" establishes a *fixed* identifier, but it does not rely on fixed locations.  So wherever a text:change-id="ct270478544" happens to refer to it, the connection is maintained no matter what kind of movement happens on the paths between the two.
> 		 
> 		It is true that in the specific case of the ODF 1.2 use of this device, the <text:changed-region> element is referenced from the content where it is applicable, not the reverse.  That seems like a good choice to me, considering that it is the reference from the content that makes examination of the <text:changed-region> of any concern.  This also allows the <text:changed-region> material to be output in front of the content, so it can all be indexed before the in-text references occur in the datastream.  
> 		 
> 		Does not the MCT use of these rigid absolute paths require that the document be serialized before the tracking information can be serialized?  And for a consumer presenting the content, is it necessary to find the relevant change-tracking information by some synchronization method?  My concern is that it is impossible to detect when synchronization has been broken.  Everything has to be absolutely perfect and there is no way to touch a change-tracked document without having to adjust all of the tracking locations.  That's a considerable burden.
> 		 
> 		I am only addressing the cross-identification approach here.  It appears that ODF CT does this in a more robust way; I don't see why MCT can't be made at least as resilient.  
> 		 
> 		I think there does need to be a stretchy way to connect between tracked details and the point of change.  An xml:id ID value and a corresponding IDREF attribute value do this perfectly for XML-modeled persistent document formats.  And this kind of support already has to exist in ODF-based processors simply because of the many ways that cross-referencing is handled by identifiers of some type, including IRIs that refer into package parts by fragment identifiers.  
> 		 
> 		 - Dennis
> 		 
> 		 
>
> 	..snip 
>
> 	-- 
> 	-- -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 	Robin La Fontaine, Director, DeltaXML Ltd  "Experts in information change"
> 	T: +44 1684 592 144  E: robin.lafontaine@deltaxml.com      
> 	http://www.deltaxml.com      
> 	Registered in England 02528681 Reg. Office: Monsell House, WR8 0QN, UK
>
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