office-collab message

Subject: IRC log from today's meeting - 2013-12-18

From: Svante Schubert <svante.schubert@gmail.com>
To: "office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org" <office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:34:56 +0100

Please find the IRC log of today's meeting below. 
Our next meeting will be next year on the 15th of January.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2014&month=01&day=15&hour=15&min=30&sec=0&p1=179&p2=37&p3=136&p4=234&iv=1800

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/event.php?event_id=36613

The teleconference login data for next call will be found in the OASIS calendar event (URL above).

Attendees: John, Oliver, Friedrich, Jos, Peter, Patrick, Rob, Svante.

        anonymous morphed into Jos van den Oever
      

        Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: moin moin from Hamburg
      

        Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: only some days left to get all my xmas gifts
      

        Svante Schubert: I got a problem with the access code
      

        Svante Schubert: Rob, can you open the call please?
      

        Svante Schubert: or Patrick?
      

        Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: I am hearing music
      

        [16:33] Svante Schubert: worked
      

        [16:34] Rob Weir: Sorry, missed your note.  I was enjoying the music too much.
      

        [16:34] Svante Schubert: Next meeting https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/event.php?event_id=36613
      

        [16:34] Svante Schubert: 15th of Janauraary
      

        [16:35] anonymous morphed into Friedrich
      

        [16:36] Svante Schubert: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-collab/201312/msg00008.html
      

        [16:37] Svante Schubert: with an example of XML changes to be serialized
      

        [16:40] Svante Schubert: http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#element-style_text-properties
      

        [16:41] Svante Schubert: the properties element of type text is similar to the XML element
      

        [16:42] Svante Schubert: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/download.php/51764/latest/OpenDocument-v1.3-wd01-part5-changetracking.odt
      

        [16:45] Jos van den Oever: a user action might result in multiple operations
      

        [16:46] Jos van den Oever: in these cases it would be nice to group the operations
      

        [16:46] Svante Schubert: Oliver: Another example for combining operations: convert text to table or table to text function
      

        [16:48] Svante Schubert: Oliver: Search/Replace another example
      

        [16:49] Svante Schubert: BTW regarding the example operation naming: The reason in the example document to use add / format / delete elements instead of addParagraph, formatParagraph, etc. was to keep the new element set low for ODF 1.3. Was once a comment of Rob.
      

        [16:50] Jos van den Oever: do we have a list of valid values for @type in type="paragraph" ?
      

        [16:50] Friedrich: grouped operations (e.g. from user actions) could have a certain semantic. for displaying those groups back in the UI (e.g. in Undo menu) the semantic needs to be localized
      

        [16:51] Svante Schubert: Using a new default namespace: <undo xmlns="docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.3/os/part5/relaxng#changes">
      

        [16:51] Svante Schubert: Using a new default namespace: <undo xmlns="docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.3/os/part5/relaxng#changes">
      

        [16:51] Friedrich: *the name of the semantic
      

        [16:51] Svante Schubert: @Jos: The valid list is the list of components
      

        [16:53] Svante Schubert: 6. Bundles of Metadata
Metadata can be added in sets. Styles are a prominent example.
      

        [16:53] Svante Schubert: They do not count as a component (moving others in position)
      

        [16:54] Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: I think Jos intention is to simplify parsing
      

        [16:55] Svante Schubert: Dependent on the value of the @type attribute, there are different co-attributes
      

        [16:58] Jos van den Oever: it's confusing that an <add/> may or may not be localized
      

        [16:58] Svante Schubert: localized like in relation to position not I8N
      

        [16:58] Svante Schubert: right?
      

        [16:59] Jos van den Oever: no, i mean have a location in the document
      

        [16:59] Svante Schubert: okay
      

        [16:59] Jos van den Oever: maybe it makes sense to have e.g. <set/> and <unset/> for global properties
      

        [16:59] Jos van den Oever: such as style definitions
      

        [17:01] Jos van den Oever: and reserve <add/> for things that go into the document flow
      

        [17:01] Jos van den Oever: note: there are multiple flows, e.g. the flow in frames is different from the main one
      

        [17:02] Svante Schubert: Rob: Making the set of the XML as small as possible, but not smaller.. 
      

        [17:03] Svante Schubert: On the other hand, we might provide an extra element/operation for all ops changing a position
      

        [17:04] Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: I think we should follow Jos' proposal to distinguish these kind of operations
      

        [17:04] Svante Schubert: The measurement for Fonts are by default in 'pt', all other length units are
normalized to 1/100 millimeter
      

        [17:06] Jos van den Oever: why not have explicit units all the time?
      

        [17:06] Jos van den Oever: why not have explicit units all the time?
      

        [17:06] Svante Schubert: Because otherwise you have to check for the run-time all the time
      

        [17:06] Svante Schubert: You always choose a unit when you serialize to XML
      

        [17:07] Jos van den Oever: having only one type of unit per physical quantity does simplify the spec
      

        [17:07] Jos van den Oever: are decimal values allowed?
      

        [17:08] Svante Schubert: only integer
      

        [17:08] Jos van den Oever: decimal != integer
      

        [17:08] Jos van den Oever: why integers instead of decimals?
      

        [17:11] Friedrich: so no micro-documents possible? 
      

        [17:12] Svante Schubert: Oliver: Draw document, which is the specification of a processor layout. You use units for your layout, than the 1/100 millimeter is not enough.
      

        [17:13] Jos van den Oever: Oliver says that currently OpenOffice can have a drawing of very small dimensions, e.g. 1e-9 (nm) for processor layout
      

        [17:14] Svante Schubert: Oliver: Ops would otherwise limit former ODF specs
      

        [17:14] Jos van den Oever: the drawing is then scaled to look nice
      

        [17:14] Jos van den Oever: the drawing is then scaled to look nice
      

        [17:14] Svante Schubert: Something else:
      

        [17:14] Svante Schubert: <format type="text" start="/2/12" end="/2/22">
<properties type="text" url=""_blank" href="http://thesaurus.com/browse/good%20example%22/">http://thesaurus.com/browse/good%20example"/>
</format>
      

        [17:15] Svante Schubert: A different mapping of hyperlinks
      

        [17:15] Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: on mute again 
      

        [17:17] Jos van den Oever: is <b></b> retained?
      

        [17:18] Jos van den Oever: and is it a reachable position for a cursor?
      

        [17:18] Svante Schubert: Good for rount-trip of spreadsheet cells, where deleting the content in the GUI the hyperlink is saved after save/load roundtrip and editing content again
      

        [17:19] Svante Schubert: Remember a paragraph with only an empty span with automatic style is similar to a paragraph with having the span text style as its automatic style!
      

        [17:19] Svante Schubert: Remember a paragraph with only an empty span with automatic style is similar to a paragraph with having the span text style as its automatic style!
      

        [17:20] Svante Schubert: Friedrich: Seems more an run-time behavior problem than a serialization problem for CT
      

        [17:22] Svante Schubert: <add type="style" parent="Heading" displayName="Heading 1" next="Normal">
<properties type="text" color="#3b006f" fontSize="18" fontWeight="bold"/>
<properties type="paragraph" outlineLevel="1" marginTop="847" paddingTop="212"/>
</add>
      

        [17:23] Svante Schubert: outlineLevel="1"
      

        [17:24] Svante Schubert: The default is 0 there is no ODF limit, in AOO/LO the limit is 10 in MSO 9
      

        [17:24] Svante Schubert: The default is 0 there is no ODF limit, in AOO/LO the limit is 10 in MSO 9
      

        [17:26] Svante Schubert: Jos: How to distinguish lists and numberParagraphs and Headings.
      

        [17:26] Svante Schubert: Lists and numberedParagraph are 100% identical (aside of the ODF XML serialization). BTW IMHO numberedParagraph is boilerplate and should be depreacted.
      

        [17:27] Friedrich: 19.844.4 <text:h>
The text:outline-level attribute specifies the level of a heading, starting with 1. Headings
without a level attribute are assumed to be at level 1.
      

        [17:28] Friedrich: So not sure if "default is 0" is right?
      

        [17:28] Svante Schubert: default is being a paragraph 
      

        [17:28] Svante Schubert: as soon it is higher 0 the paragraph becomes a heading
      

        [17:30] Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: if we treat text and text:h the same then I think 'outlinelevel=0' is the default
      

        [17:30] Oliver-Rainer Wittmann: bye
      

        [17:30] Svante Schubert: There is no heading/list component, only paragraphs with outlineLevel/listLevel..
      

        [17:30] Svante Schubert: byebye
      