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Subject: RE: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument Presentations

Well, in part this relates somewhat to the point that David Clark brought up today -- awareness and misinformation. Accessibility has a poor history in both areas. So, I believe it would be a great service to the community of ODF developers and implementers to produce a guide.
- Mike

From: Nathaniel S Borenstein [mailto:nborenst@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:49 AM
To: Peter Korn
Cc: Florian Reuter; office@lists.oasis-open.org; office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org; Peter.Korn@Sun.COM; Richard Schwerdtfeger
Subject: Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument Presentations

We keep encountering this same discussion, over and over, in minor variants.  The more I see us work on the spec, the more urgently I believe we need to produce a non-normative but highly authoritative Guide for ODF Implementers.

If OASIS can have an ODF Adoption TC, I'm sure it could also have an ODF Implementation TC devoted to producing such a guide.  Or, we could have an Implementation SC of the main TC, if we wanted to keep it more closely aligned with the latest issues regarding the spec.  We could even have an Implementation SC of the Adoption TC, on the grounds that the implementation advice is vital for adoption, but the technical content would be so high that I think that would be a poor choice.  As a last resort, we could even do this from outside OASIS entirely, though I think that would be the second to worst possible alternative.  (The worst, of course, would be what we are doing now:  Nothing.)

At least twice a month, I think, I have been seeing issues raised in either the TC or SC that come down to "this isn't a spec issue, but it would be vital advice to implementers."  I think it's time to bite the bullet and make a plan to produce such a guide.  Any other thoughts?  -- Nathaniel

Peter Korn <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM>
Sent by: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM

05/10/2006 06:49 PM

Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Florian Reuter <Florian.Reuter@Sun.COM>, office@lists.oasis-open.org, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
[office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument Presentations

Hi Rich,

I thought we'd discussed this - that these questions are entirely part
of the user interface in presentations that wrap around the ODF table

I agree these are issues we have to work out with the folks implementing
tables in presentations in our office suites, but I don't see how that
impacts our XML encoding decision.


Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> When considering tables in presentations please consider user agent
> issues.
> - Will the table area be clipped and require scrolling. In MSOffice
> that does not happen?
> - Has the group addressed all import/export issues?
> - Will a frame be rendered in the user agent if it is embedded?
> MSOffice does not. If we don't address this the layout will be a mess?
> We also need to ensure the author has the ability to define row and
> column headers as are defined in the table construct.
> Rich
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
> blog: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=441
> "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
> I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the
> difference.", Frost
> Inactive hide details for Florian Reuter
> <Florian.Reuter@Sun.COM>Florian Reuter <Florian.Reuter@Sun.COM>
>                         *Florian Reuter <Florian.Reuter@Sun.COM>*
>                         05/09/2006 02:17 AM
> To
> office@lists.oasis-open.org, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
> cc
> Subject
> [office] Table support for OpenDocument Presentations
> Hi,
> I just want to give a brief status description of the evaluation of the
> table support for OpenDocument presentations.
> Currently I see three different ways of adding table support to
> OpenDocument specifications:
> a) "native" table support
> b) Embedded object based table support
> c) tables in text boxes
> d) Drawing object plus annotation based table support
> ad a)
> The "native" table support would have the advantage, that tables are
> "first-class citizens" of OpenDocument presentations. An example would be:
> <draw:frame>
> <table:table>
> ....
> </table:table>
> </draw:frame>
> The above encoding is closest to Open XML and would ensure rountrip.
> The disadvantage of the above solution is, that currently deployed
> reader would ignore the <table:table> element and thus tables where
> missing in the document. This would require all vendors of OpenDocument
> processing applications to ship product patches.
> ad b)
> Encoding tables in OpenDocument presentations as "embedded objects"
> would be the best solution regarding backward compatibility. Encoding as
> "embeeded object" means nothing else than "use OpenDocument spreadsheet
> tables in presentations as embedded objects". An example is:
> <draw:frame>
>  <draw:object xlink:href="javascript:void(0);"
> xlink:type="simple" xlink:show="embed" xlink:actuate="onLoad" />
> </draw:frame>
> The disadvantage of this solution is, that tables in presentations are
> no longer "first-class citizens" as they are e.g. in Open XML.
> ad c)
> OpenDocument allows in its current version that tables can appear within
> text boxes. However this currently not implemented in e.g.
> OpenOffice.org. For example:
> <draw:frame>
> <draw:text-box>
> <table:table>
> ..
> </table:table>
> </draw:frame>
> Here without any schema change table in presentations could be achieved.
> ad d) [suggested my Yue MA]
> Currently OpenDocument processing entities store tables in presentations
> as shapes, i.e. a table is "drawn", but the structure is forgotten. By
> simply annotating this "drawn" tables with the table structure
> information both backward compatibility as well as accessibility needs
> could be satisfied.
> The disadvantage of this is, that OpenDocument would get a rather
> "unconventional" second table model.
> I would like to finish the investigation phase know and start dicussing
> the prefered solution.
> Looking forward for your comments.
> Best regards,
> Florian
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