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Subject: Re: [office] list-override proposal


Hi Thomas,

I guess we're getting closer to a common understanding.

So --- sample 5 seems to express a main difference in understanding. However my example is not very good. Unfortionately it can be read in two different ways :-(

I changed it in the attachements.

So what we have is 
1. A [L1, continue=false]
2 .B [L1, continue=true]
3. C [L1, continue=true]
I.  D [L2, continue=false]
II. E [L2, continue=true]
4. F [L1, continue=*true*]
5. G [L1, continue=true]
I.  H [L2, continue=false]
II. I [L2, continue=true]

So the continue=true statement on paragraph "F" actually continues the list identified with the style "L1" (and not "L2").

So it this our main difference in understanding?

~Florian

P.S.
Hey Oliver. Still alive :-) So what do you say to sample 5?

>>> Thomas Zander <zander@kde.org> 03/06/07 6:08 PM >>>
On Tuesday 06 March 2007 17:24, Florian Reuter wrote:
> As I said in the last TC meeting my rejection of the list-id approach is
> based on what I understand of the list-id approach. Maybe I understood it
> wrong.

Reading your examples I think we have various small differences in how 
numbered paragraphs work :)  Most probably including list-id.

> So a grammar and an explanation would help. 

Sorry, I thought the mail I linked to did that. See below for more.

> Furthermore mapping the  
> examples I made to the list-id approach might also help me understand the
> issue better.
>
> I still don't see why a list-override would not be sufficient for you?

That's a misunderstanding; I have absolutely nothing against list-override. As 
long as its used in the proper context.

Basis difference between numbered paragraphs and text:list hierarchies are 
context.
1) numbered-paragraph does NOT have a way to map it to the list it belongs to. 
Text-list does have that because it is nested. So just get the xml-node 
that's the parent and you have the list it belongs to.
We talked before about using the list-style as a marker for which list it 
belongs to; please read the archives for mails on why that's a bad idea. 
(hint its about separation of content and markup)

2) text:list does NOT have a way to give each item (aka paragraph) a different 
style. Instead you give the style to the list.

The proposal I made in December [1] was to make the two basic units for lists 
more common by adding a feature to each.
1) Add list-id to numbered paragraphs to make it more like text:list.
2) add text:style-override to text:list to make it more like the numbered 
paragraphs.

> Do you agree with the examples I made to illustrate how text:list and
> text:numbered-paragraph currently play together in ODF1.1?

I think the text:list items look good; the numbered-paragraph have some things 
in there that I think can be done better.
for readability I'd drop all 'text:continue-numbering="false" in the 
numbered-paragraph items.  :)
They are seldom to never needed.

Example 4 has the second paragraph reuse the indent from the first (numbered) 
paragraph.  The common solution to that is to use a soft-enter instead of 
starting a new paragraph.  Meaning this example is not realistically to enter 
in a WP.
The numberedParagraph solution would then be;

text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1" 
	text:style-name="L1" text:list-id="x"/>
  <text:p>A
B</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1" 
	text:style-name="L1" text:list-id="x"/>
  <text:p>C</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>

Note that the decimal character 8232 is the unicode character for a 
soft-enter. :)

Example 5 has some xml for the numbered-paragraph that does not do in 1.0 or 
1.1 what you intend it to do. Specifically; the continue-numbering feature 
only works on the preceding list of the same style. So changing style will 
not continue numbering. And this is exactly the reason we introduced list-id.

So; the result would be;
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L1" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>A</text:p>
</text:numbist-id="x" />
  <text:p>B</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L2" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>C</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L2" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>D</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L1" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>E</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L1" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>F</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L2" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>G</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="1"
    text:style-name="L2" text:list-id="x" />
  <text:p>H</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>


Example 6 is where you use the style-override on the numbered-paragraph. My 
solution would be;
<text:numbered-paragraph text:level="2" text:list-id="x"
	text:style-name="L2" />
  <text:p>C</text:p>
</text:numbered-paragraph>
Assuming all numbered paragraphs got that same list-id.

Example 7 is basically the same thing as example 6. Less complicated for the 
numbered-paragraph.

All the examples for the text:list style, including the examples that use the 
text:list-style-override look good. No objections to those at all.

Cheers!

1) http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200612/msg00001.html
-- 
Thomas Zander

numlistpar.odt

numlistpar.pdf



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