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Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute


Is the Sudoku example an appropriate use case to discuss the future direction of office documents?
I tried hard to find other examples of "logically nested" tables, but I could not find any....

I agree that the Sudoku is an example of a semantically (essentially) nested table, even if it may not be an appropriate example.
We have some alternative methods to deal with the example, e.g. table headers, use of nested tables (not is-subtable), use of just table with instruction (since it has special semantics for a game), and so on.
I feel the table header is the best method to deal with the example, since we can add "controllable (editable, modifiable)" semantics to each cell.

Anyway, I want to investigate more examples, if possible.

Thank you.

Hironobu Takagi, PhD.
User Experience and Accessibility Technology
Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Research
E-mail: takagih@jp.ibm.com

Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>
To: office@lists.oasis-open.org, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:   [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute
From: Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, 08:31

Rich, I suspect that the current consensus is sufficient, i.e. document that table:is-subtable should not be used to implement split/merge.  The open switch is for the AccSC team to agree that other use cases do not have problems.  One example given was the layout for a Sudoku game which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using subtables I think the addressing scheme would look like this (using a 2x2 equivalent)

.A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1

.A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2

.A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1

.A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2

My initial reaction is that cell addressing scenario would not be confusing.

I also asked for some other kind of use case and Andreas suggested array-valued functions in a spread sheet.  I am not familiar with this so I asked him to describe the table structure.

Pete Brunet


IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
Ionosphere: WS4G

Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

07/10/2007 05:47 PM

Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Hironobu Takagi <TAKAGIH@jp.ibm.com>
[office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems to address our problem.

Pete, Hiro, do you concur?


Rich Schwerdtfeger
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
Inactive hide details for Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
Sent by: Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM

07/10/2007 04:08 AM


Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS


Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org


Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses

Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision,
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the
representation of merged cells.

However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.


Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Lars,
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when you
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings to
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user gets
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and our
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user is lost.
> Hope this answers your question.
> Cheers,
> Rich
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
> blog:
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>"Dave
> Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>
>                         *"Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>*
>                         07/09/2007 12:23 PM
> To
> "Lars Oppermann" <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com>
> cc
> "OASIS Office" <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
> office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject
> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute
> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com> wrote:
>  > Hi Dave,
>  >
>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested table is a
>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of view, it would
>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned cells rather
>  > than entering a subtable.
> Suggestion.
> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?
> Ask them how table navigation works.
> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.
> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.
> cell spanning has been around for a while.
> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?
> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an end user.
> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask nicely.
> regards
> --
> Dave Pawson

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