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Subject: Re: [office] OpenDocument TC coordinationcallminutes 2007-08-13

Hi Lars,

just to be more precise here. I guess the real problem is that the formula spec does not cover all potential spreadsheet instances ---- or are we wrong here?

Maybe this is a question for the formula SC? What you do think?


>>> "Florian Reuter" <freuter@novell.com> 08/14/07 12:57 PM >>>
Hi Lars,

the question is really simple. Consider the following ODF fragment:

   <table:table table:name="Sheet1" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false">
    <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:number-columns-repeated="3" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
    <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">
     <table:table-cell table:formula="oooc:=[.B1]*[.C1]">
     <!--- what is the value ??? -->
     <table:table-cell >
      <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10">
     <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="20">
   <table:table table:name="Sheet2" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false">
    <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
    <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">

What we want to illustrate with the above fragment is the question what a "table" multiplied by constant means?

If we leave that up to the implementation two (or more...) possible interpreations might be
a) **ERROR
b) Table is treated as an inline-array, thus the reasult might be 
      <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10">
So what we wanted to outline here is that there is a definition whole in the ODF spec. 

Our preferred solution would be to remove subtables/sections, etc from the schema.


Change the ODF schema in a way, that table-cells in a spreadsheed applications can not contains subtables, sections and headings.


Wrt. to your initial remarks. The idea was to notify the technical committee about a shortcomming of the ODF spec and then solve the problem together. Are you saying this is not appreciated?


>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/14/07 11:57 AM >>>

Are you proposing anything concrete here? It would be helpful if you 
would participate in the actual discussion of problem by proposing 
actual solutions which can then be discussed rather than just throwing 
in stabtements such as "we consider this not to be solved". Which 
problem? The fact that a table cell may contain a table? Why is that a 

There are, as you should be aware of, technical possibilities of 
constraining the schema as to disallow certain contents in certain 
elements depending on their context. This was not possible when the 
schema was still specified in a DTD.

Right now, the specification allows an implementation to place a table 
in a cell of a spreadsheet (anyone can see this by looking at the 
schema). No implementation that I am aware of currently does this. 
Basically the specification is saying: "if you want to put a table into 
a spreadsheet cell, here's how you do it." or, "if someone has put a 
table into a spreadsheet cell, here's how you find it".


Florian Reuter wrote:
> Hi,
> yes you're right: The answer is not satisfactory wrt. to interoperabiility. It is not acceptable to leave that up to the singe application.
> We also need to adjust the OpenFormula specification here. E.g. what does it mean if a table/section, etc is referenced in a formula.
> We consider this not to be solved.
> ~Florian
>>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/13/07 5:16 PM >>>
> * Rollcall
> Yue Ma, IBM
> Rob Weir, IBM
> Helen Yue, IBM
> David Faure, KDE
> Patrick Durusau
> Bruce D'Arcus
> Michael Brauer, Sun Microsystems
> Lars Oppermann, Sun Microsystems
> Eike Rathke, Sun Microsystems
> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann, Sun Microsystems
> * Last Minutes
> The attending TC members unanimously accepted the minutes
> * Action Items
> Michael: Permanent URL for uploaded documents
>    not possible
>    approved documents can be moved to http://docs.oasis-open.org
>    alternative is to refer to TC page from the document
> Michael: How to reference A11Y guidelines from TC page
>    many standards list "related documents"
>    once the document is approved we can request to add it as an 
> additional document
> * Status
> Michael uploaded draft-4 of the 1.2 specification. Patrick had worked 
> through the first seven chapters and suggested some changes. We have not 
> yet integrated the proposals but we will continue with the editing over 
> the next days/weeks and post updated drafts.
> * SC status update
> A11Y:
> SC working on guidelines document
> Guidelines will be published as independent document that will be 
> referenced from the main specification
> Meta:
> Svante and Patrick are working on the revised proposal
> Patrick's talk on the proposal was very well received at XTreme Markup 
> Languages Conference.
> Formula:
> Working on test cases
> Completing financial functions
> * Pending Proposals
> Revised annotations proposal:
> There should also be xml:id of the annotation attribute.
> Oliver: yes, we can add that
> -> no objections
> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00007.html
> * Preview Images
> Save thumbnails in PNG. Additional note concerning the size of the images.
> The note can certainly be revised later if we find a better wording. 
> Important point is to remove the size limitation from the normative text.
> -> no objections
> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00005.html
> * Chart data-label auto-positions
> Waiting for a revised proposal from KDE
> David will follow up with Bjoern from OO.o and work on resolving details 
> missing for a revised proposal -> ACTION
> * Layer sets per page
> David will forward Christian's reply to KDE developers
> * Other Topics
> Revised conformance section
> Michael will propose some new wording
> Suggestions from others are very welcome
> OASIS requires numbered conformance statements in the conformance 
> section of the specific
> * table-cell content
> Its up to an application what is supported in a table-cell. We are just 
> providing the schema. We are not constraining that in the specification.
> Maybe that is not a satisfactory answer for application interoperability
> We have mentioned conformance levels for an upcoming version. Maybe that 
> could help also with this issue...
> We might have a note in the spec stating, that spreadsheet applications 
> as we know them do not support tables as table-cell content
> Generally a note should only explain what is written in the standard. 
> It's certainly possible...
> We need to think more about this and find a clean solution
> Next call will be a work

Sun Microsystems                Lars Oppermann <lars.oppermann@sun.com>
Nagelsweg 55                    Software Engineer
20097 Hamburg, Germany          Phone: +49 40 23646 959
http://www.sun.com/             Fax:   +49 40 23646 550
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering

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