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Subject: Re: [office] OpenDocument TCcoordination callminutes 2007-08-13


Hi,

I'm not involved in the formula SC. Can somebody who is involved bring this to the attention of the SC?

Thanks,

~Florian

>>> Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> 08/14/07 1:46 PM >>>
Florian,

Florian Reuter wrote:
> Hi Lars,
>
> just to be more precise here. I guess the real problem is that the formula spec does not cover all potential spreadsheet instances ---- or are we wrong here?
>
>   
I haven't started proofing the formula proposal in detail but from 
memory it does deal with arrays. I seem to remember that cells that 
contain matrices are flagged in some manner.

So, perhaps, only perhaps because I don't know, treatment of a cell as a 
matrix where it doesn't have the appropriate flag is an error.
> Maybe this is a question for the formula SC? What you do think?
>
>   
I suspect so since formulas would be where such flags and errors would 
be defined.

Hope you are having a great day!

Patrick
> ~Florian
>
>   
>>>> "Florian Reuter" <freuter@novell.com> 08/14/07 12:57 PM >>>
>>>>         
> Hi Lars,
>
> the question is really simple. Consider the following ODF fragment:
>
>    <table:table table:name="Sheet1" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false">
>     <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:number-columns-repeated="3" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
>     <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">
>      <table:table-cell table:formula="oooc:=[.B1]*[.C1]">
>      <!--- what is the value ??? -->
>      </table:table-cell>
>      <table:table-cell >
>       <table:table>
>       <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10">
>       <text:p>10</text:p>
>       </table:table-cell>
>       </table:table>
>      </table:table-cell>
>      <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="20">
>       <text:p>20</text:p>
>      </table:table-cell>
>     </table:table-row>
>    </table:table>
>    <table:table table:name="Sheet2" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false">
>     <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
>     <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">
>      <table:table-cell/>
>     </table:table-row>
>    </table:table>
>
> What we want to illustrate with the above fragment is the question what a "table" multiplied by constant means?
>
> If we leave that up to the implementation two (or more...) possible interpreations might be
> a) **ERROR
> b) Table is treated as an inline-array, thus the reasult might be 
>       <table:table>
>       <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10">
>       <text:p>200</text:p>
>       </table:table-cell>
>       </table:table>
>  
> So what we wanted to outline here is that there is a definition whole in the ODF spec. 
>
> Our preferred solution would be to remove subtables/sections, etc from the schema.
>
> Proposal:
> ========
>
> Change the ODF schema in a way, that table-cells in a spreadsheed applications can not contains subtables, sections and headings.
>
> ---
>
> Wrt. to your initial remarks. The idea was to notify the technical committee about a shortcomming of the ODF spec and then solve the problem together. Are you saying this is not appreciated?
>
>
> ~Florian
>
>
>
>   
>>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/14/07 11:57 AM >>>
>>>>         
> Florian,
>
> Are you proposing anything concrete here? It would be helpful if you 
> would participate in the actual discussion of problem by proposing 
> actual solutions which can then be discussed rather than just throwing 
> in stabtements such as "we consider this not to be solved". Which 
> problem? The fact that a table cell may contain a table? Why is that a 
> problem?
>
> There are, as you should be aware of, technical possibilities of 
> constraining the schema as to disallow certain contents in certain 
> elements depending on their context. This was not possible when the 
> schema was still specified in a DTD.
>
> Right now, the specification allows an implementation to place a table 
> in a cell of a spreadsheet (anyone can see this by looking at the 
> schema). No implementation that I am aware of currently does this. 
> Basically the specification is saying: "if you want to put a table into 
> a spreadsheet cell, here's how you do it." or, "if someone has put a 
> table into a spreadsheet cell, here's how you find it".
>
> /Lars
>
>
>
> Florian Reuter wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> yes you're right: The answer is not satisfactory wrt. to interoperabiility. It is not acceptable to leave that up to the singe application.
>>
>> We also need to adjust the OpenFormula specification here. E.g. what does it mean if a table/section, etc is referenced in a formula.
>>
>> We consider this not to be solved.
>>
>> ~Florian
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>>>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/13/07 5:16 PM >>>
>>>>>           
>> * Rollcall
>> Yue Ma, IBM
>> Rob Weir, IBM
>> Helen Yue, IBM
>> David Faure, KDE
>> Patrick Durusau
>> Bruce D'Arcus
>> Michael Brauer, Sun Microsystems
>> Lars Oppermann, Sun Microsystems
>> Eike Rathke, Sun Microsystems
>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann, Sun Microsystems
>>
>> * Last Minutes
>> The attending TC members unanimously accepted the minutes
>>
>> * Action Items
>> Michael: Permanent URL for uploaded documents
>>    not possible
>>    approved documents can be moved to http://docs.oasis-open.org
>>    alternative is to refer to TC page from the document
>> Michael: How to reference A11Y guidelines from TC page
>>    many standards list "related documents"
>>    once the document is approved we can request to add it as an 
>> additional document
>>
>> * Status
>> Michael uploaded draft-4 of the 1.2 specification. Patrick had worked 
>> through the first seven chapters and suggested some changes. We have not 
>> yet integrated the proposals but we will continue with the editing over 
>> the next days/weeks and post updated drafts.
>>
>> * SC status update
>> A11Y:
>> SC working on guidelines document
>> Guidelines will be published as independent document that will be 
>> referenced from the main specification
>>
>> Meta:
>> Svante and Patrick are working on the revised proposal
>> Patrick's talk on the proposal was very well received at XTreme Markup 
>> Languages Conference.
>>
>> Formula:
>> Working on test cases
>> Completing financial functions
>>
>> * Pending Proposals
>> Revised annotations proposal:
>> There should also be xml:id of the annotation attribute.
>> Oliver: yes, we can add that
>> -> no objections
>> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00007.html
>>
>> * Preview Images
>> Save thumbnails in PNG. Additional note concerning the size of the images.
>> The note can certainly be revised later if we find a better wording. 
>> Important point is to remove the size limitation from the normative text.
>> -> no objections
>> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00005.html
>>
>> * Chart data-label auto-positions
>> Waiting for a revised proposal from KDE
>> David will follow up with Bjoern from OO.o and work on resolving details 
>> missing for a revised proposal -> ACTION
>>
>> * Layer sets per page
>> David will forward Christian's reply to KDE developers
>>
>> * Other Topics
>> Revised conformance section
>> Michael will propose some new wording
>> Suggestions from others are very welcome
>> OASIS requires numbered conformance statements in the conformance 
>> section of the specific
>>
>> * table-cell content
>>
>> Its up to an application what is supported in a table-cell. We are just 
>> providing the schema. We are not constraining that in the specification.
>> Maybe that is not a satisfactory answer for application interoperability
>> We have mentioned conformance levels for an upcoming version. Maybe that 
>> could help also with this issue...
>> We might have a note in the spec stating, that spreadsheet applications 
>> as we know them do not support tables as table-cell content
>> Generally a note should only explain what is written in the standard. 
>> It's certainly possible...
>> We need to think more about this and find a clean solution
>>
>> Next call will be a work
>>
>>     
>
>
>   

-- 
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)




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