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Subject: Re: [office] OpenDocument TCcoordination callminutes 2007-08-13
Hi, I'm not involved in the formula SC. Can somebody who is involved bring this to the attention of the SC? Thanks, ~Florian >>> Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> 08/14/07 1:46 PM >>> Florian, Florian Reuter wrote: > Hi Lars, > > just to be more precise here. I guess the real problem is that the formula spec does not cover all potential spreadsheet instances ---- or are we wrong here? > > I haven't started proofing the formula proposal in detail but from memory it does deal with arrays. I seem to remember that cells that contain matrices are flagged in some manner. So, perhaps, only perhaps because I don't know, treatment of a cell as a matrix where it doesn't have the appropriate flag is an error. > Maybe this is a question for the formula SC? What you do think? > > I suspect so since formulas would be where such flags and errors would be defined. Hope you are having a great day! Patrick > ~Florian > > >>>> "Florian Reuter" <freuter@novell.com> 08/14/07 12:57 PM >>> >>>> > Hi Lars, > > the question is really simple. Consider the following ODF fragment: > > <table:table table:name="Sheet1" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false"> > <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:number-columns-repeated="3" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/> > <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1"> > <table:table-cell table:formula="oooc:=[.B1]*[.C1]"> > <!--- what is the value ??? --> > </table:table-cell> > <table:table-cell > > <table:table> > <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10"> > <text:p>10</text:p> > </table:table-cell> > </table:table> > </table:table-cell> > <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="20"> > <text:p>20</text:p> > </table:table-cell> > </table:table-row> > </table:table> > <table:table table:name="Sheet2" table:style-name="ta1" table:print="false"> > <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/> > <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1"> > <table:table-cell/> > </table:table-row> > </table:table> > > What we want to illustrate with the above fragment is the question what a "table" multiplied by constant means? > > If we leave that up to the implementation two (or more...) possible interpreations might be > a) **ERROR > b) Table is treated as an inline-array, thus the reasult might be > <table:table> > <table:table-cell office:value-type="float" office:value="10"> > <text:p>200</text:p> > </table:table-cell> > </table:table> > > So what we wanted to outline here is that there is a definition whole in the ODF spec. > > Our preferred solution would be to remove subtables/sections, etc from the schema. > > Proposal: > ======== > > Change the ODF schema in a way, that table-cells in a spreadsheed applications can not contains subtables, sections and headings. > > --- > > Wrt. to your initial remarks. The idea was to notify the technical committee about a shortcomming of the ODF spec and then solve the problem together. Are you saying this is not appreciated? > > > ~Florian > > > > >>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/14/07 11:57 AM >>> >>>> > Florian, > > Are you proposing anything concrete here? It would be helpful if you > would participate in the actual discussion of problem by proposing > actual solutions which can then be discussed rather than just throwing > in stabtements such as "we consider this not to be solved". Which > problem? The fact that a table cell may contain a table? Why is that a > problem? > > There are, as you should be aware of, technical possibilities of > constraining the schema as to disallow certain contents in certain > elements depending on their context. This was not possible when the > schema was still specified in a DTD. > > Right now, the specification allows an implementation to place a table > in a cell of a spreadsheet (anyone can see this by looking at the > schema). No implementation that I am aware of currently does this. > Basically the specification is saying: "if you want to put a table into > a spreadsheet cell, here's how you do it." or, "if someone has put a > table into a spreadsheet cell, here's how you find it". > > /Lars > > > > Florian Reuter wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> yes you're right: The answer is not satisfactory wrt. to interoperabiility. It is not acceptable to leave that up to the singe application. >> >> We also need to adjust the OpenFormula specification here. E.g. what does it mean if a table/section, etc is referenced in a formula. >> >> We consider this not to be solved. >> >> ~Florian >> >> >> >> >>>>> Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM> 08/13/07 5:16 PM >>> >>>>> >> * Rollcall >> Yue Ma, IBM >> Rob Weir, IBM >> Helen Yue, IBM >> David Faure, KDE >> Patrick Durusau >> Bruce D'Arcus >> Michael Brauer, Sun Microsystems >> Lars Oppermann, Sun Microsystems >> Eike Rathke, Sun Microsystems >> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann, Sun Microsystems >> >> * Last Minutes >> The attending TC members unanimously accepted the minutes >> >> * Action Items >> Michael: Permanent URL for uploaded documents >> not possible >> approved documents can be moved to http://docs.oasis-open.org >> alternative is to refer to TC page from the document >> Michael: How to reference A11Y guidelines from TC page >> many standards list "related documents" >> once the document is approved we can request to add it as an >> additional document >> >> * Status >> Michael uploaded draft-4 of the 1.2 specification. Patrick had worked >> through the first seven chapters and suggested some changes. We have not >> yet integrated the proposals but we will continue with the editing over >> the next days/weeks and post updated drafts. >> >> * SC status update >> A11Y: >> SC working on guidelines document >> Guidelines will be published as independent document that will be >> referenced from the main specification >> >> Meta: >> Svante and Patrick are working on the revised proposal >> Patrick's talk on the proposal was very well received at XTreme Markup >> Languages Conference. >> >> Formula: >> Working on test cases >> Completing financial functions >> >> * Pending Proposals >> Revised annotations proposal: >> There should also be xml:id of the annotation attribute. >> Oliver: yes, we can add that >> -> no objections >> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00007.html >> >> * Preview Images >> Save thumbnails in PNG. Additional note concerning the size of the images. >> The note can certainly be revised later if we find a better wording. >> Important point is to remove the size limitation from the normative text. >> -> no objections >> RESOLVED: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200708/msg00005.html >> >> * Chart data-label auto-positions >> Waiting for a revised proposal from KDE >> David will follow up with Bjoern from OO.o and work on resolving details >> missing for a revised proposal -> ACTION >> >> * Layer sets per page >> David will forward Christian's reply to KDE developers >> >> * Other Topics >> Revised conformance section >> Michael will propose some new wording >> Suggestions from others are very welcome >> OASIS requires numbered conformance statements in the conformance >> section of the specific >> >> * table-cell content >> >> Its up to an application what is supported in a table-cell. We are just >> providing the schema. We are not constraining that in the specification. >> Maybe that is not a satisfactory answer for application interoperability >> We have mentioned conformance levels for an upcoming version. Maybe that >> could help also with this issue... >> We might have a note in the spec stating, that spreadsheet applications >> as we know them do not support tables as table-cell content >> Generally a note should only explain what is written in the standard. >> It's certainly possible... >> We need to think more about this and find a clean solution >> >> Next call will be a work >> >> > > > -- Patrick Durusau patrick@durusau.net Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34 Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps) Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)
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