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Subject: Re: [office] Forensics: Working with the ODF 1.1 ODT version

Hi Dennis,

I had a closer look at the ODF 1.1 ODF document:
The final version of this document has been created with StarOffice 8
PU2 - equivalent with OOo 2.0.2 - under operating system Solaris Sparc. 
The used fonts are different on Solaris compared to the ones under e.g. 
Windows. Thus, I think it will be very hard to find an ODF consumer for 
Windows which will show the same layout result as the StarOffice 8 
PU2/OOo 2.0.2 under the used Solaris system. I opened the document with 
OOo 2.0.2 under Windows 7 64bit and got 723 pages.
My conclusion is that we should not rely our erratas on page and line 
references - as you already said.

Ad your reported table split defects:
I opened this document with OOo 3.3 under Windows 7 64bit. I 
investigated all tables which split at the end of a page. I did not 
experience any of the defects which you have reported.
I recall that there are defects in the layout algorithm of the one or 
the other OOo 2.x version regarding splitting tables. These has been 
fixed. Thus I suggest to use the lastest release, in case that you want 
to use OOo (or any of the alternatives which are based on OOo).

Best regards, Oliver.

On 28.03.2011 18:52, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> I have had an unexpected glitch in my wanting to start from the
> editable ODF Text version of the OASIS ODF 1.1 Standard.  The
> versions of ODF consumers that I have do not match the pagination
> that is shown in the PDF of the OASIS ODF 1.1 Standard.  The
> difference is substantial.  The ODF consumers I have used all end up
> with fewer pages (719 pages in OO.o 2.4.1, 720 pages in OO.o 3.2.0,
> 718 pages in LibreOffice 3.3.2) instead of 738 pages in the PDFand it
> appears to be related to how automatic page breaks are done.
> The screen capture illustrates the 1-page difference between OO.o
> 2.4.1 and LOffice 3.3.2.  In 2.4.1, section 9 is one page longer.
> The creeping that ends up with one extra page begins in section 9.9
> in the page break just before the Event Effect subsection.  (OO.o
> 3.2.0 on a different machine has the break still different.)  There
> may have been other differences in page breaks before this, but none
> of them changed the table of contents page numbers for any of the
> indexed headings.
> As discussed on today's call, this is not a material problem for
> creating an Errata 01 so long as we don't continue the practice of
> the ODF 1.0 Errata 01 of using page and line numbers.  I agree, we
> can provide errata item description in a way that do not require page
> and line references, and I had intended to do it that way.
> However, the problem with pagination differences is that I am then
> left to wonder what else is being done differently.  For that reason,
> I would much prefer to use some sort of style or other adjustments to
> have a pagination that is preserved in interchange among ODF
> consumers and that leads to a matching PDF.
> In fact, in examining shorter pagination in a current ODF consumer, I
> saw that some table breaks were being presented incorrectly.  This is
> apparently a bug in some consumers and I need to work around it.
> (And this is why it is important to understand what the pagination
> differences are all symptoms of and finding some way to mitigate
> them.)
> - Dennis
> PS: Here are details of the bug as something to watch out for when
> working on ODF TC specifications.  I am not sure how to report it and
> to whom, but here are the symptoms:
> 1. A table is split between two pages.  The table is styled so that
> table rows are not themselves split, and headings are also preserved
> on continuation pages.
> 2. Sometimes, the table is split such that the last table row before
> the split appears to have disappeared.
> 3. Apparently the last row retained before the split is there, but it
> extends below the page body frame such that it is not visible.  In
> the case I observed, none of the clipped row was visible at all, but
> it was observable that the top of another row was there (because the
> vertical border lines of the table could be seen extending below the
> last-visible row).
> 4. That's probably enough to figure out what the edge case is.  Of
> course, this bug is hard to report unless I capture a screen shot or
> a PDF fragment that shows the incorrect presentation.  If I see any
> of those again I will capture screen shots.
> 5. There are other differences in how schema fragments are split
> across pages.  They can be cured by heavy-handed forcing of breaks
> but not by anything I've been able to do by adjusting styling or page
> parameters (footer distance for example).  (I notice that the jitter
> between schema fragment lines is also present but not always exactly
> the same compare do the original.)
> 6. Just to demonstrate that I am not picking on the OO.o code base
> alone, I also opened the ODF 1.1 standard in Microsoft Office 2010
> Word and got an even shorter document, although updating the table of
> contents makes it almost match the PDF in terms of the last page
> number, but only because the TOC blew up to where it ended on page 60
> of 739.  The Office 2010 version is not useable for my purposes
> because of other formatting discrepancies, especially for the schema
> fragments.
> PPS: I can imagine that there is something about lining up the pixels
> and font rendering that leads to these discrepancies of pagination,
> even though I have the same default printer in all cases.  (But
> Windows 7 doesn't use the printer manufacturer's drivers any longer.)
> As David Wheeler mentioned on the call, these variations are
> well-known.  My problem is that I can't tell whether the deviations
> hide more-material discrepancies such as defects in inter-page table
> splitting.   This also is what has bothered me about having the
> editable form as the authoritative edition.  There is no assurance
> that different users will see the same authoritative text.  I think
> fidelity should trump reusability and I have no evidence that the PDF
> renditions of these documents are worse in interchange than what I am
> seeing here.
> -----Original Message----- From: Dennis E. Hamilton
> [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 16:25
> To: 'ODF TC List ' Cc: 'Michael Brauer '; 'Patrick Durusau ';
> robert_weir@us.ibm.com; 'Robin Cover' Subject: [office] Working Draft
> for ODF 1.1 (Second Edition)?
> As part of compiling ODF 1.1 Errata 01, I will be making a
> change-marked version of the OASIS ODF 1.1 Specification, reflecting
> the change that is needed to reflect the ODF 1.0 Errata 02 plus the
> IS 26300 COR1, COR2, and AMD1 (where they have deviations we must
> anticipate).
> My intention is to use those change-markings as the basis for the
> individual ODF 1.1 Errata 01 instructions.  I find this to be the
> most-reliable way to go about this.
> [ ... ]
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