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Subject: Re: [office] Proposal for style:list-style-name

On 13.06.2017 22:56, Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have started with a proposal in file ProposalDraft.odt. I have added 
> my suggestions in Blue on the first page. The yellow frames contain some 
> questions and remarks.

you want to add:

> The list style specified by this attribute is applied to headings that are not contained in a list.

i now realized the way we approached this, by focusing on how the number
should be formatted, via outline style or numbering style, is asking the
wrong question, or at least ignoring one very important aspect.

namely: how do you determine the number of a heading in the first place,
i.e. its "index" in the "sequence"?

to determine the number of a list item you have to know which list it's
in, hence using the numbering style without a list-item / list element
doesn't make sense.

the effect you want to have is that you want a heading to be numbered
not as a heading but as an item of a separate list, so you need to
"connect" the heading elements by actually putting them into a list element.

if they're not in a list, how do you know if all of them should be
numbered consecutively, or if there are several different numberings,
with restarts in the middle?

all of that is encoded as attributes on text:list / text:list-item
elements such as xml:id, text:continue-numbering...

for example, you may want to have un-numbered top-level headings
"Prologue" and "Epilogue" in addition to numbered chapters and
differently numbered appendixes.

> Producers should keep the value of the text:outline-level attribute in sync with the list level, because in several elements (e.g. 7.3.8 <text:chapter>, 8.3.2 <text:table-of-content-source>) not the list level but the outline level is evaluated.

i am not sure if we should say "should" here.  i hope ODF specifies
unambiguously which level is used in any given element?

if i understand right, we are not concerned about Consumers "getting it
wrong", but about usability issues; maybe a non-normative note is

> The text:outline-level attribute is mandatory for a <text:h> element, see schema line 840 and line 852. That is not explicitly mentioned in 19.844.4 <text:h>. There is the sentence “Headings without a level attribute are assumed to be at level 1.” instead. But there cannot be any heading without a level attribute. Or do I misunderstand the schema?

yes, that sentence seems superfluous since the attribute is mandatory.

although, maybe it wasn't mandatory in an older version?  no, in 1.0
it's mandatory too.

> Section 19.498.2 contains the sentence 
> “outline style - The outline style as a list style can be referenced by the style:list-style-name attribute.”
> Should this text be copied here? For example,
> “The style:list-style-name attribute may reference the <text:outline-style> element.”

yes, why not.

> The second and further pages contain problems in regard to numbering, 
> which I think have to be solved. I have attached two test documents and 
> have made screen shots from some application I have got on my PC. 
> Although I consider some renderings in WebODF and ONLYOFFICE as bugs or 
> missing feature, the differences between Word 2010, TextMaker and 
> LibreOffice are immense. Perhaps someone has got additional applications 
> on Linux or Mac and can make screen shots from them?

i think the biggest problem with these test documents is that they
contain a single text:list element and no text:style-name attribute and
multiple items each containing a paragraph with a style that wants a
different list style.  i expect there should be only one list style per
list, so which one to choose?

> Problem A
> Take a simple paragraph inside a list. Consider the case, that no style is specified on the list elements themselves and the paragraph style has a style:list-style-name attribute with empty value. Applying section “5.3.2 Default List Style” I get the conclusion:
> First bullet item there does not apply, because no list in the parent lists has specified a list style, otherwise the style:list-style-name would not be used, see second sentence in 19.496.
> Second bullet item does not apply, because the style:list-style-name attribute exists but has an empty value. Therefore no list-style is specified, that can be used.
> So third bullet item is used, which means, that an implementation-dependent default is used.
> But is that the intention for allowing an empty value for the style:list-style-name attribute?

i agree with your analysis and think the handling of this situation is fine.

> Problem B
> Take a heading inside a list. Consider the case, that no style is specified on the list elements themselves and the headings paragraph style has a style:list-style-name attribute with empty value. Section 16.34<text:outline-style> has the sentence,
> “An outline style is a list style that is applied to all headings within a text document where the heading's paragraph style does not define a list style to use itself.”
> Does the wording “does not define a list style to use itself” includes the case that the style:list-style-name attribute exists, but has an empty value? If not, then problem A applies. Here too, it is not clear, what the intention was, to allow an empty value for the style:list-style-name attribute.

oh, that's a difficult one!

given the answer to A, and the reasonable assumption that an
implementation-defined default does not qualify as "defining a list
style to use itself", i get the idea that the outline style is used in
this case.

on the other hand, the heading is in a list, which gets its own sequence
of numbers, hence the numbering of the heading is taken from the list.

i think i'd prefer if we are consistent about taking both the number and
the format (and the level) from the same source, i.e. either both from
the list/list style, or both from the heading/outline style.

> Problem C
> If a list does not specify a list style at all and the paragraphs inside the list, do not have a style:list-style-name attribute in their paragraph styles, then from section 5.3.2 an implementation-dependent default list style is used. On the other hand from section 16.34 we get, that if the headings paragraph style does not define a list style, then the outline style is used. So what style is used for a heading inside a list, in case the style:list-style-name attribute does not exist in the paragraph style of the heading? Is it the default list style or the outline style?

this is basically the same as B.

> Problem D
> How do indents definied in the paragraph style interact with indents definied in the list style?

i'm afraid that by now i'm too hungry to investigate this question :)

Michael Stahl | Software Engineer
Platform Engineering - Desktop Team
Red Hat

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