ODF TC Teleconference 11 May 2020 - Agenda

[Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>]

Greetings!

Below you find a draft agenda for our TC call on Monday, 2020-05-11

Time of meeting: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2020&month=5&day=11&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=25&p2=37


The call counts towards voter eligibility.

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Access code (for all numbers): 438-387

Chat room for meeting is at: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/odf

Please send comments to the mailing list.


Agenda
------

1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights

2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda

3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 27 April 2020 (below)

4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling
through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a
meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC
)

5. Issues 

4.7 Empty Cell terminology

A rather detailed discussion from Svante: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00011.html

First response thus far: Andreas: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00012.html

6. Adjournment

*****

Minutes from 4 May 2020

*********

anonymous morphed into Svante
Svante morphed into Svante Schubert
Svante Schubert: Good morning, everyone
Patrick: Amended Agenda for 4 May 2020 ODF Teleconference

1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights

2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda

3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 27 April 2020 (below)

4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling
through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a
meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC
)

5. Issues

a. QNAME error in manifest schema Michael Stahl)
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202004/msg00016.html

Now reads (incorrect)

<rng:data type="QName">
ÂÂÂÂÂ <rngïaram name="pattern">[^ï:[^ï</rngïaram>
ÂÂÂ </rng:data>

Should read:

<rng:data type="QName">
Correction (thanks Michael)ÂÂÂÂÂ <rngïaram
name="pattern">[^ï+:[^ï+</rngïaram>
ÂÂÂ </rng:data>

Michael notes this is correct in the document schema but not here. I'll
try to check with Chet before our meeting on correcting as editing error.

Added: Chet reports we should file a request for errata, which will
trigger him searching for an easier way to make this fix. (as per Patrick)

b. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology

Discussion since our last meeting:

Proposal by Regina Henschel:

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00000.html

Response by Andreas Guelzow:

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00001.html

Response by Regina Henschel:

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00002.html

Responses by Andreas Guelzow:

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00003.html

https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00004.html

Added: Comment by Svante Schubert -
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00006.html


Added: Latest proposal by Regina (today):
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00008.html

Added: 6: Holiday reminders for May 2020:

No meeting May 18th - Queen Victoria

No meeting May 25th - Memorial Day

7. Adjournment
Patrick: have quorum
Patrick: Minutes from last time, unchanged by the agenda modifications:
*****

Minutes 27 April 2020
Patrick: Quorum - yes
Patrick: Agenda - approved by consent
Patrick: Minutes 20 April 2020 - approved by consent
Patrick: 4.7 Empty Cell terminlogy
Patrick: Regina - empty cell - can have content that is not considered
for calculations
Patrick: Regina - don't say empty cell in general but say empty cell
when referenced by a formula
Patrick: Regina - can use whether office:value-type exists, if not, is
empty for purposes of calculations
Patrick: Andreas - tricky b/c don't use value types - know when cell is
"empty"
Patrick: 12 in my example - was representation of the 12
Patrick: Andreas - value type might be the right thing to do
Patrick: value type void - means we don't have a value
Patrick: void should be the behavior if the value type is not specified
at all
Patrick: Regina says void not listed in the schema -
Patrick: Francis - is there a function to return the type of a cell?
Patrick: (void has no attribute in Table 14) as as if attribute is missing)
Patrick: TYPE - returns number for type of value number, text, logical,
error, array in 6.13.33
Patrick: in table 14 - boolean, currency, dat, float, percentage,
string, time, void -
Regina Henschel: CELL has "b" (blank), "l" (label or text), "v" (number)
Patrick: Francis - will empty be an emergent property based upon others
being false?
Patrick: Francis - if using office:value-type - would need to make sure
it works
Patrick: Rich - would need to run it by internal contacts before stating
an opinion
Patrick: A cell is an empty cell when referenced by a formula and the
referenced cell has no office:value-type attribute.
Patrick: Blank would have an office:value-type attribute but no content
Patrick: Regina - when referenced in a formula - and no
office:value-type - empty
Patrick: Contextual use of "empty" - at least one is in the context of a
formula referencing a cell - it looks for the office:value-type - Not
defining "empty" in other contexts or usage
Patrick: Francis - use special typography for "empty cell" in this
context (from Regina)
Patrick: Alfred - will ask internal sources at MS if this is clear, etc.
Patrick: adjourned


Start of today's meeting:

Patrick: agenda - approved by consent
Patrick: Minutes from 27 April 2020 - approved by consent
Patrick: Oasis errata process -
https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/tc-process-2017-05-26#errata
Patrick: Michael notes not an OASIS standard so errata process doesn't fit
Patrick: Question becomes how to avoid creating a new specification in
order to fix a schema error
Patrick: Perhaps better, we don't have a light weight way to fix minor
errors without a new specification -
Patrick: heavy solution - new specification - alternative solution --
ask Chet-
Patrick: Michael, if nothing faster, then do another specification -
Patrick: Svante - need a flow chart of the defect process - defect
report at a certain stage
Patrick: Patrick - will have answer on process at least, perhaps not the
chart, by 11 May meeting
Patrick: Regina - empty cell proposal - latest
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00008.html
Svante Schubert: Let me rephrase emptycell to has no cell value:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part2.html#ISBLANK
Patrick: Svante - empty string an empty value? - what is blank? cell
without value?
Patrick: Andreas - values are not specified as paragraphs - values are
in attributes - if don't give a value, figure out from content - that's
a problem
Patrick: Andreas - problem is where there is no value specified - no
value type, look at content to figure out what it is, don't know what
empty paragraph means - it's an interpretation issue
Patrick: Andreas - if applications don't agree what it means -
Patrick: Svante - could say for ODF version - here is the semantic agreement
Patrick: Andreas - what is proposed is don't do this -
Patrick: From the proposal - second paragraph - It is
implementation-dependent whether the markup
<table:table-cell><textï/></table:table-cell> is an "empty cell" or not.
For interoperability producers should not write such markup, but add an
office:value-type="string" attribute in case a cell with empty string is
intended, or omit the empty child element <textï/> in case an "empty
cell" is intended.
Patrick: minor correction: "for which non" to "for which none"
Svante Schubert: I just looked into the ODF RelaxNG all XML nodes beyond
table:table-cell are optional.
Patrick: Svante, wants to work out the range of proposals -
Patrick: Regina - spreadsheets also represent database data - makes a
difference if exists as a field or exist and had not value -
Patrick: Svante - what does the XML allow -
Patrick: Defer to 11 May, Svante will file a more detailed proposal
Patrick: Regina - empty cell equal to ISBLANK - cannot say from XML that
cell is empty - can have chart-elements so not considered for formulas -
cannot use only XML to describe it
Patrick: Alfred - first create cell - it is not empty when creating a
new sheet - Regina outlines the steps - used Office 365
Patrick: Regina - different value on re-opening than when editing (creation)
Patrick: Alfred agrees -
Patrick: Regina - need an overview over the tools to produce links -
template for specification
Patrick: Would want to have version for ODF 1.4 - so we can incorporate
immediately -
Patrick: Patrick - need to request templates from Chet for ODF 1.4 -
Svante Schubert:
https://tdf.github.io/odftoolkit/docs/odf1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-cs01-schema-rng.html
Svante Schubert: This is an RNG (RelaxNG Grammar) as HTML with lnks
Svante Schubert: links
Patrick: That's clever!
Andreas Guelzow: indeed
Patrick: Michael - there was a subversion repository -
Patrick: Svante - Github has many tools
Michael Stahl: [svn-remote "svn"]
url = https://tools.oasis-open.org/version-control/svn/office
Patrick: Regina - current specification is based on 1.1 - list styles -
should update to more recent list styles - old paragraph and character
styles - need a guide to the style in which situation
Patrick: adjourned

-- 
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Technical Advisory Board, OASIS (TAB)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)

Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
Twitter: patrickDurusau

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