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Subject: RE: [office] Agenda ODF TC Teleconference 8 June 2020

My apologies. I will not be able to make this meeting. I have to attend a different one.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>
Date: 2020-06-07 19:23 (GMT-07:00)
To: ODF TC List <office@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject: [office] Agenda ODF TC Teleconference 8 June 2020


Below you find a draft agenda for our TC call on Monday, 2020-06-08

Time of meeting:

The call counts towards voter eligibility.

Teleconference Numbers

Canada - (use US number)

Denmark - +45 78 77 25 34

Germany - +49 30 255550324

Hungary - +36 1 987 6874

The Netherlands - +31 6 35205016

USA - +1 712 770 5505

Access code (for all numbers): 438-387

Chat room for meeting is at: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/odf

Please send comments to the mailing list.


1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights

2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda

3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 11 May 2020 (below)

4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling
through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a
meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134:

5. Holidays for the rest of 2020 and January of 2021?

6. Github - odf (as top branch) - maintainers? other github issues?

7. Resolved issues for ODF 1.4 reflected in JIRA:

8. - other?

9. Adjournment


Changes or additions welcome!

Hope everyone is at the start of a great week!


Minutes from 11 May 2020


Start of today's meeting:

Patrick: agenda - approved by consent
Patrick: Minutes from 27 April 2020 - approved by consent
Patrick: Oasis errata process -
Patrick: Michael notes not an OASIS standard so errata process doesn't fit
Patrick: Question becomes how to avoid creating a new specification in
order to fix a schema error
Patrick: Perhaps better, we don't have a light weight way to fix minor
errors without a new specification -
Patrick: heavy solution - new specification - alternative solution --
ask Chet-
Patrick: Michael, if nothing faster, then do another specification -
Patrick: Svante - need a flow chart of the defect process - defect
report at a certain stage
Patrick: Patrick - will have answer on process at least, perhaps not the
chart, by 11 May meeting
Patrick: Regina - empty cell proposal - latest
Svante Schubert: Let me rephrase emptycell to has no cell value:
Patrick: Svante - empty string an empty value? - what is blank? cell
without value?
Patrick: Andreas - values are not specified as paragraphs - values are
in attributes - if don't give a value, figure out from content - that's
a problem
Patrick: Andreas - problem is where there is no value specified - no
value type, look at content to figure out what it is, don't know what
empty paragraph means - it's an interpretation issue
Patrick: Andreas - if applications don't agree what it means -
Patrick: Svante - could say for ODF version - here is the semantic agreement
Patrick: Andreas - what is proposed is don't do this -
Patrick: From the proposal - second paragraph - It is
implementation-dependent whether the markup
<table:table-cell><text/></table:table-cell> is an "empty cell" or not.
For interoperability producers should not write such markup, but add an
office:value-type="string" attribute in case a cell with empty string is
intended, or omit the empty child element <text/> in case an "empty
cell" is intended.
Patrick: minor correction: "for which non" to "for which none"
Svante Schubert: I just looked into the ODF RelaxNG all XML nodes beyond
table:table-cell are optional.
Patrick: Svante, wants to work out the range of proposals -
Patrick: Regina - spreadsheets also represent database data - makes a
difference if exists as a field or exist and had not value -
Patrick: Svante - what does the XML allow -
Patrick: Defer to 11 May, Svante will file a more detailed proposal
Patrick: Regina - empty cell equal to ISBLANK - cannot say from XML that
cell is empty - can have chart-elements so not considered for formulas -
cannot use only XML to describe it
Patrick: Alfred - first create cell - it is not empty when creating a
new sheet - Regina outlines the steps - used Office 365
Patrick: Regina - different value on re-opening than when editing (creation)
Patrick: Alfred agrees -
Patrick: Regina - need an overview over the tools to produce links -
template for specification
Patrick: Would want to have version for ODF 1.4 - so we can incorporate
immediately -
Patrick: Patrick - need to request templates from Chet for ODF 1.4 -
Svante Schubert:
Svante Schubert: This is an RNG (RelaxNG Grammar) as HTML with lnks
Svante Schubert: links
Patrick: That's clever!
Andreas Guelzow: indeed
Patrick: Michael - there was a subversion repository -
Patrick: Svante - Github has many tools
Michael Stahl: [svn-remote "svn"]
url = "">Patrick: Regina - current specification is based on 1.1 - list styles -
should update to more recent list styles - old paragraph and character
styles - need a guide to the style in which situation
Patrick: adjourned
Patrick: roll - quorum - yes
Patrick: Agenda approved by consent
Patrick: Amend to say approve minutes of 5 May 2020
Patrick: 5 May 2020 -> 4 May 2020
Patrick: Consent to minutes of 4 May 2020
Patrick: 5.a. - will use latest version of Libre Office
Patrick: 5.b - version control
Patrick: Svante - want to use Github for the artifacts - wants to
extract default value and to check against list -
Patrick: Regina - go to Github as zip files? or each document a directory?
Patrick: Michael - Jose was working on a way to diff the xml files
Patrick: Alfred - use Github for file repository or show different
versions of ODT files
Patrick: Afred - change tracking in the ODT - Github for file
respository and storage
Patrick: Request - for Github respository - commit artifacts as ODT or
schema as appropriate - public viewable -
Patrick: c. Style extraction - and normalization
Svante Schubert: In regard of 5.b: For instance, we should add the XSLT
files that were being to create the ODF 1.3 HTML documents to this
GitHub repro.
Svante Schubert: Patrick says to 5.c: Inconsistent usage of styles
Patrick: Regina - current problem there are styles - with same names but
different - appendix heading and appendix heading with text
Patrick: Francis - ODT - styles were applied have gone missing - default
values - looking at the text and looking at the list of style -
different spellings - and so on.
Patrick: Francis - body:text - and direct formatting applied -
Patrick: Francis - category of applied styles - can filter until those
that have been applied - but not how often they are used -
Svante Schubert: @Francis:
Patrick: d. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology
Michael Stahl: found an old mail by Jos "Subject: normalizing / cleaning
up ODF files for use in revision control"
Patrick: Andreas - there are certain states that should not exist -
Patrick: Andreas - in last file - in that cell - 4 and 5 cases should
not exist - no justification for cell with no type or where the type is
void - where the cell contains empty or non-empty paragraphs - not clear
what it means to a consumer, if there is text, it should be shown to the
user - is text in cell, not "blank"
Patrick: Andreas - would have to say should be read as content doesn't
exist - treat as producer forgot the string type or put in content where
it should not have. -
Patrick: Svante - user adds content without knowing the complexity of
the cell - not intuitive where everything is optional - for a future
proposal - if there is content with no type - it should be string type -
in a future version of ODF - 4 and 5 make no sense but are valid ODF and
users might fall into that trap
Patrick: Andreas - current standard only talks about a type - doesn't
address the issue of where there is no type and there is content in the
cell - a fix ought to address the whole problem - cell that appears to
have content -
Patrick: Regina - tables in text documents as well - in Word, have
tables with no value type at all - save to ODT
Patrick: Andreas - must make sense in spreadsheets - showing content and
isBlank should go together
Patrick: Svante - leaving type out is like saying void (present version)
Patrick: Andreas - probably should say NOT legal to do - no value type -
no content in the cell -
Patrick: Regina - must define content to specify it's absence, such as
an image that has no type
Patrick: Andreas and Svante agree - define content - agreed
Svante Schubert: Andreas said: We should define what content is.
Svante Schubert: Andreas said: Not yet a proposal type of content and a)
what isBlank is/does, but at the same time b) prohibit users creating
content on emtpy cells
Svante Schubert: ^content^"content"
Svante Schubert: Regina stated: We have the dilemma of ODF text
applications that are currently not using any data types.
Svante Schubert: So these cells are by definition empty
Patrick: adjourned

Patrick Durusau
Technical Advisory Board, OASIS (TAB)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)

Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
Twitter: patrickDurusau

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