Re: [office] ODF TC Teleconference 29 March 2021 - Draft Agenda

[Svante Schubert <svante.schubert@gmail.com>]

Patrick,

in my opinion, a charter should provide information for external and internal personal about the direction the ODF TC is heading.

The charter helps to align internally within the TC and draft goals for the ODF TC for the future.Â

There is no grammar we can validate a charter against, but if we write what we intend to do, there is at least a chance to get the participation of people who are interested in this as well.

There is only a little chance - and no need - that everyone within the TC is intending to work on the same thing, but everyone should see the benefit of the direction we are heading to.

At least I can guaranteeÂyou that I will be working on an abstractÂdata model being the ODF Info Set, so at least some of us will work on it and hopefully provide results.

Best regards,

Svante

PS: Oh, my late email was just a reply to the informationÂI received on Sunday/Monday night from your agenda that we do need to change the agenda. I basically disagree and liked to talk on Monday German business hour with Regina and Michael before sending a response. Likely Monday is my ODF TC working day, if this is too late, I suggest we simply add this information to the follow-up agenda - I do not see a big problem here, but indeed room for improvement! :-)

Am Mo., 29. MÃrz 2021 um 16:51ÂUhr schrieb Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>:

Svante,

I know we are all pressed for time and work when we can, but emails with discussion items would be better posted several days before discussion in the TC.

Much like we do with proposals.

I'm not sure we *need* to add 'ODF Info Set' to the charter as a deliverable but I have no objection if we do.

On the other hand, I don't think the charter should be brimming with specific projects that the TC can undertake under the more general terms of its charter.

Such as an ODF Primer, which could be defined and undertaken with no changes to our charter, it requires the most a willing person with the time and resources to write it.

The usual issue with TC work projects, not charter but member resources.

Hope the trip to the dentist is a painless one!

Patrick

On 3/29/21 9:26 AM, Svante Schubert wrote:

Hi Patrick, dear TC members,

in regard to agenda item #4 "Revision of the ODF TC Charter - cont.", I quickly called Regina and Michael today and have some feedback:

1. Perhaps we can improve our work on the charter by doing the first rough high-level run over the changes on the charter. Just to see if we find a high-level agreement.
   Afterwards, we might add the step, to find some English/American native speaker, who might come up with an improved kick-start to go through! :-)
   We might even only talk about the lines someoneÂis not completely happy with and see if there is consent in the complete draft suggestion.
2. Regina, Michael and I found also a consensus that we should add at least the evaluation of some higher-level ODF abstract data model - like 'ODF Info Set' analogue to 'XML Info Set' for XML - to our charter.
   
   We have the following arguments:
1. According to the following excellent new paragraph that you suggested to the charter:
   "Development of a lossless XML format that retains non-supported features, even when edited by software incapable of supporting some features."
   It would be helpful if applications doing a 'feature' cherry-picking from the specification. To be able to do so, we need to define such features to be picked and in the first place.
2. We talked already about the idea that our TC is striving to improve the time for new ODF feature requests by ODF applications. The advantage forÂODF applications would be to be able to avoid the usage of an intermediate XML namespace by quickly providing a TC community specification. The advantage for everyone, we would be discussing the feature while it is being implemented with the developers instead of years afterwards.
   Again, the 'feature perspective' becomes important here. Especially, when providing test documents by the TC to improve feature-based testing!
3. For the ODFDOM project, I am maintaining, I once desired to write high-level documentation about the ODF concepts.Â
   But I realized that this conceptional documentation could be reused by any ODF application and therefore belongs to the ODF specification.
   Regina suggested providing an ODF primer similar to W3C primers, explaining the basics providing the high-level view.
   ODF concepts for such a primer might be:
1. For instance, that an ODF text document is basically a sequence of paragraph and tables. That tables - as two-dimensional objects - are an anomaly in the ODF document tree.
2. Or for instance, about the concept of an ODF document being serialized in the ZIP as a directory with a mime-type (being described in the manifest.xml)."
   
4. Last but not least, I desire to generate source code for the ODFDOM project from our future ODF specification to save time and avoid errors.
   The idea is to also enable change-tracking based on this high-level user feature view (ie. abstract data model) as the XML is too noisy/unstable/changes-too-often without reflecting a semantic user change.

Till hopefully later today!

Svante

PS: I might be absent tonight, if my dentist appointment takes longer.. he was talking of a 'big thing'.. :/ÂÂ

Am Mo., 29. MÃrz 2021 um 14:38ÂUhr schrieb Regina Henschel <regina.henschel@libreoffice.org>:

Hi Patrick,

please add https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4105
to the agenda.
I do not want to discuss it in detail today, but only want it to be set
to "open" for ODF 1.4.

Kind regards
Regina



Patrick Durusau schrieb am 29.03.2021 um 02:16:
> Greetings!
>
> A draft agenda for our TC call on Monday, 2021-03-29
>
> Time of meeting:
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2021&month=3&day=29&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=25&p2=919
>
> The call counts towards voter eligibility.
>
> Teleconference Numbers
>
> Canada - (use US number)
>
> Denmark - +45 78 77 25 34
>
> Germany - +49 30 255550324
>
> Hungary - +36 1 987 6874
>
> The Netherlands - +31 6 35205016
>
> USA - +1 712 770 5505
>
> Chat room for meeting is at http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/odf
> <http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/odf>
>
> Please send comments to the mailing list.
>
> Agenda
> ------
>
> 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights
>
> 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda
>
> 3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 22 March 2021
>
> https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/202103/msg00041.html
>
> 4. Revision of the ODF TC Charter - cont.
>
> Chet Ensign reminded me that clarification of our charter is what we are about. To expand the charter would require re-chartering the TC. I don't think we have strayed into that area, yet, and hope that we don't.
>
> 5. Adjournment.
>
> Hope everyone is at the start of a great week!
>
> Patrick
>


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-- 
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Technical Advisory Board, OASIS (TAB)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
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