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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] Caution and Disclaimer on Interoperability
I took a quick look at ODF, and it is weak in terms of preventing abuse. It's great for those that want to interoperate, but it's weak in keeping those that want to break interop in line. For example, it's generally difficult to put into a set of consistent rules, in a clear fashion while allowing for growth and new features/semantics, rules to the effect: "all paragraphs [whatever that means] must be specified using X or Y XML." ODF doesn't appear to be doing that (maybe if I read the whole document I would find cases where this is happening). Instead the much easier approach is taken: "if you use this XML then the following semantics apply [perhaps here too leaving room for growth, ie, leaving some loopholes for abusers]." Thus if I want to create a simple paragraph on page 1 of a simple text document, I know what XML I can use IF I want to be guided by ODF, ..BUT I also have the freedom to invent a secret recipe that in the end basically just puts down a paragraph (maybe with extended semantics) but in a way no one besides me will understand. This is conformant behavior according to ODFv1.1 [As stated at the top of this comment, it's generally difficult and impractical to attempt to stop abuse by trying to be comprehensive or by trying to start with imprecise concepts and attempting to lead back to mandatory (precise) XML]. Thus it's easy for a vendor having monopoly control or very large market share to take advantage of extensions, the more the merrier. They would likely not violate ODF as long as they avoid the ODF restricted XML (ie, avoid the ODF-defined namespaces). Anyway, to quote the very beginning of ODF v1.1 [ http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.1/OS/OpenDocument-v1.1-html/OpenDocument-v1.1.html ], which quickly and clearly lays out the HUGE loophole: >> Documents that conform to the OpenDocument specification *may contain elements and attributes not specified within the OpenDocument schema*. Such elements and attributes must not be part of a namespace that is defined within this specification and are called foreign elements and attributes. No more than that is needed as evidence (unless there are exceptions or if this were to fall within a specific narrow scope.. which I don't think is the case), but I'll quote some more. To re-emphasize this aspect, ODF continues at the beginning of chapter 2: >> Conforming applications either shall read documents that are valid against the OpenDocument schema if all foreign elements and attributes are removed before validation takes place, or shall write documents that are valid against the OpenDocument schema if all foreign elements and attributes are removed before validation takes place. So you can have a document that has the outside required shell of ODF and then basically be nothing but OOXML (using a proper namespace), and it would be legal ODF. Worse (is that possible?), you could place .doc binary files in there and it would be legal ODF. So my next question is why did it take the office suite monopoly vendor that long to get on board? They are getting a free pass. OK, I admit, I did not write the prior email with this info in mind (it's been a long time since I looked at the openoffice/staroffice specs (prior to ODF)). What we have is not just theory, but that the actual ODF spec, as it stands today, leaves all the loophole that any vendor looking for lock-in would ever need to comfortably put in all their proprietary bits while remaining compliant. [Anyone following along but still not believing can read it for themselves at the ODF link above.] I also suspect that not even foreign element tags would be needed to put things like "=SUM(..)" within spreadsheet cells without breaking conformancy; thus, the same flexibility that allows COOPERATING vendors to add extensions like the above to spreadsheets, means non-cooperating vendors have all the loophole they need to break interoperability and then some. In short... You said: >> So I wouldn't underestimate the interest that vendors have in seeing ODF interoperability improve. To which I'll reply: And I wouldn't underestimate the interest at least one vendor has in seeing ODF interoperability fail miserably when it comes to interoperating with the existing monopoly product. Thus anyone working to improve ODF should recognize that it's unlikely that any definition of conformancy will ever really prevent any vendor from being both compliant and at the same time being completely (for practical effects) un-interoperable. Instead, the aspirations would be to write a standard that will help minimize the un-interoperable cases for those that really truly want to interoperate. To repeat more clearly, don't expect to succeed in withholding the "conformancy" label from any monopoly vendors wanting to embrace and extend with intent to extinguish. Instead, look towards this work with OASIS as a way to make things easier on groups that really do want to standardize and interoperate. Let me also make a suggestion here. We can define a family of metrics that describe thing like how many bytes of the document are within foreign elements vs. how many are within standard elements but not within any foreign element. But even here, I think that binary blobs are possible so that they fall only within standard elements. And since a .doc may not have any well-defined XML elements inside, it may thus appear 100% within standard elements. ..Oh, well. I tried. --- robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: > jose lorenzo <hozelda@yahoo.com> wrote on 06/11/2008 > 06:32:09 PM: > > > I just joined today, so please excuse if I am > > repeating material or am a bit off topic. > > > > "Interoperability" and similar terms should be > defined > > precisely and conspicuously. > > > > In particular, I think a note should be made that > > interoperability does NOT mean that what an office > > suite user visually sees and then saves using one > > "interoperable" or "conformant" application can be > > rendered faithfully on another such conformant > > application. > > > > Hi Jose, > > Welcome to the discussion list! > Thanks. Nice to have the opportunity to share thoughts. I hope I don't make your job too difficult. > I'd say that one definition of interoperability is > that a document appears > the same visually on two different conformant ODF > implementations. But > this is not the only definition of interoperability. > I only mentioned the visual aspects (as one example) to quickly convey that some types of tests are never likely to become automated and unambiguous, at least not in the near future. [Contrast with the relatively easy to automate tests which test adherence to W3C Schemas.]
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