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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] The importance to users of documents looking the same
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Sander Marechal <sander.marechal@tribal-im.com> wrote: > robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: >> >> But I think it is premature, not having done completed the research, to >> put specific technical limitations regarding profiles into the charter. > > Not sure about this one. Perhaps we could still set some baseline > requirements that we all agree on are necessary for good interop, then leave > all the details and techspeak to the TC. You will not achieve lack of sustained opposition to trusting the big vendors who will control the TC before I die without them first earning that trust. We are only here because the same big vendors postponed ODF interop since the TC was formed.in 2002 and have in fact deliberately added new interop breakpoints in ODF 1.2, as well as broken compatibility with all earlier versions of ODF in regard to ordered lists. ODF v. 1.2 breaks compatibility with the earlier versions because KDE and Sun had not implemented ordered lists the same way, because of under-specification in the standard. ODF 1.2 makes it optional whether to write ordered lists using list tuples or triples, an absolute round-tripping barrier. E.g., you can convert list tuples to list triples by leaving one of the triples blank. But ponder the interop barrier in converting list triples to list tuples. Short story here: in ODF, the application tail wags the standard dog. Virtually every of the multitude of "may" and "should" clauses in the spec masks hard-coded programming decisions in implementations. Those are all application dependencies. Major portions of the spec are simply unspecified, e.g., the presentation layer. The presentation layer is a massive application dependency defined only by existing implementations' source code. If you ask me to trust the big vendors who created this mess in any way, you have only my sustained opposition until the day I die or they earn that trust. I blooded my head far too many times on the ODF TC trying to persuade them that the interop issues must be addressed. I do not trust them to exercise any discretion given them in a way that is not simply yet another vendor-lock-in game. There is no standard in the ODF specification. It is only a check signed in blank for developers to do whatever they want that slipped through the international standard process. The pretense that it is an open standard is belied by the application dependencies masked only by under-specification. We have a huge mess to clean up my friend. If you trust the folks who created the mess to do the right thing, there are six years of TC and SC email archives you need to read. I have read them all and they tell a sordid tale. Dave Pawson and I are agreed that no further conformance tests for ODF can be developed for elements and attributes without assuming the existence of conformance requirements that do not exist. Virtually all conformance requirements as to elements and attributes are tested by validation against the schema after all foreign elements and attributes are stripped. The only other conformance tests in regard to elements and attributes that could be developed is a minor section dealing with the processing of foreign elements and attributes, which themselves are not defined by the specification. Dave is an expert in the development of conformance tests. I have yet to see any disagreement with our conclusion so there appears to be consensus thus far that development of conformance tests must await the adoption of conformance requirements by the ODF TC. Intending no disrespect, but if you trust the big ODF vendors to do the right thing you act only on an assumption that they will, an assumption falsified by their actual behavior. ODF is not such an interop mess because the big vendors did the right thing in the six years since the ODF TC was formed. > Can use-cases be included in the charter or does it need to be formal > standards language? I think it would be useful if we could draw up a few use > cases and ask the TC to deliver formal ODF profile requirements that satisfy > those use cases. I.e. we just tell the TC "what" we want and leave the "how" > to the TC. The problem to be solved is not technical. The big ODF vendors offer no solution to the ODF interop problem in response to the CDRF proposal because their ODF interop policies *are* the ODF interop problem. There is only one feasible workplan on the table to clean up the ODF interop mess, CDRF, and that belongs in the charter unless someone can up with an equivalent or better workplan to put in the charter. . The word processing software industry has had four decades to deliver interoperability and it has yet to take the first step. The big ODF vendors are very good at talking the ODF interop talk. They have widely disseminated the myth that ODF already provides the means of iinteroperability. But they do not walk the ODF interop walk. One need only study the ODF specification to identify irrefutable proof. CDRF or better in the charter. Tie the big ODF vendors' hands to ODF interop. -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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