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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] Proposed Use case -- Interoperability in vertical and horizontal ODF markets
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 6:30 AM, <robert_weir@us.ibm.com> wrote: > I'm hoping the overall goal of the proposed TC, as stated in the eventual > charter, will include something along the lines of "To improve > interoperability among ODF implementations". The TC formation notice says that development of ODF profiles are on the table. Data format profiles in the context of a standards development organization ("SDO") are standards and subject to every technical, market, and legal requirement applicable to any other data format standard including the legal requirement of responsiveness to market requirements in horizontal and vertical markets and the requirement that standards place all competitors on an equal footing through specificity in the standard that requires no application-level interop. "To improve interoperability among ODF implementations" does not even distinguish between lawful work on a standard and unlawful application-level interop work not directed to lawful standard development work in the context of a voluntary standards development organization. What's the goal here, Rob, an ongoing Interop Camp for developers to hack application-level interop or development of standards? Your company is litigating my use case with Microsoft in Europe in regard to OOXML whilst ducking, bobbing, and weaving to avoid adhering to the same law on both the ODF TC and on this proposed TC. One need only read Sutor's article to understand why document exchange format profiles for round-tripping between less and more featureful apps are an absolute market requirement to level the competitive playing field in the ODF app market. "To improve interoperability among ODF implementations" is both so vague and so ambiguous that it is meaningless. It says nothing at all about the *qualities* of the profile-related work or the market, technical, and legal requirements those profiles will respond to. My use case does. I have your own article and Sutor's on the side of my use case proposal. What do you have to show that you and Sutor were wrong in what you wrote before? "To improve interoperability among ODF implementations" says nothing at all about working past the under-specification.issues in ODF and blinks past the fact that ODF is an insufficient vocabulary for profile-related work because of gross under-specification. > If so, we'll want to limit > ourselves to the problems that actually exist among ODF implementations. > We'll have enough of those to worry about that I don't think we'll also > have the leisure to tackle the problems that don't exist as well. Feigning ignorance of the 150 or so app-specific extensions written by OOo and the clones of its code base doesn't impress me, Rob. I've got iron-clad proof you're aware of them. Moreover, my use case deals with what the ODF standard currently allows to happen, and is not limited to the extensions interop mess that already exists. Your indifference to what the standard allows to happen is telling, particularly given your prior statement to me on the Fellowship list that you view ODF as a mere vocabulary for buyers and sellers to express their profile requirements. "I see a standard as providing a shared vocabulary for buyers and sellers to express their requirements. Some users, like IDABC will seek applications that do not extend ODF. ODF should provide a way of expressing the technical side of that requirement. Other users will have stricter requirements. Maybe archivists want to express the requirement that all fonts be embedded and that no object embedding (OLE) is used, and no macros or script is used. So, something similar to PDF/A. If so, ODF should provide a conformance class to express that technical requirement. And so on. We can do these in the standard itself, or as separate profiles. But I don't think we can express a prohibition against proprietary extensions as a technical requirement." <http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/2008-April/007307.html> So far as I'm aware that is the first time you floated the idea of doing profile work outside the ODF standard itself. But regardless, ODF is an inadequate vocabulary for the expression of profiles and the interop mess actually exists from ODF illegally granting conformant status to app-defined extensions. I briefed the applicable law for you in that thread, complete with quotations, citations, and links but you remained stalwart in your defense of conformant status for such extensions without addressing the law other than by attacking my personal credibility in raising the legal issues. We also discussed the problem of apps not retaining the ability to write to unextended ISO/IEC:26300 and you made it plain that you were not only aware of the problem but had no intent to do anything about it in your capacity as co-chair of the ODF TC. Now you turn 180 degrees and claim that you know of no apps that write app-specific extensions to ODF without retaining the ability to write to unextended ODF. Does the fact that IBM slapped a different GUI atop the OOo code base make it a different app in the context of Bob Sutor's analysis of interop requirements in horizontal/vertical software markets and the under-specification of standards claimed to be "open?" I think the answer is unequivocally not. My use case exposes the need for *document exchange* profiles and an interop framework. Rather than tasking tasking the OIIC TC with solving that riddle, you offer instead only a mere slogan, "[t]o improve interoperability among ODF *implementations.*" Which ODF implementations, Rob, and do you propose to do it through expounding standards or through running an ongoing ODF Interop Camp on this TC for developers doing application-level interoperability hacks without bothering to get their hacks into a standard? It's the difference between lawful standards work and an antitrust conspiracy in restraint of trade. By omission, you seem to say that my use case exposes no interop problems at all that actually exist and require solution. See Sutor's article and the contents of your own brain. You have plenty enough knowledge to compare ODF to what Sutor said and respond within that context to my use case and the need for the OIIC TC to solve those issues. > In any case, the ODF standard does speak to foreign elements and attributes, > so an exhaustive test suite will of course include examples of this feature. The profiles proposed to be developed by this TC have to speak to that subject as well. > Since the ODF standard says that such content should be preserved, As Dave points out, ODF section 1.5 says they *shall* be preserved, not *should.* OOo 2.x is non-conformant because it eats all foreign elements and attributes other than its own and paragraphs and text spans. I haven't tested OOo 3.x or Lotus Symphony yet in that regard but I'm not hopeful. we would > check to see if that recommendation was observed and issue a "warning" if it > was not. Go ahead and issue it from the ODF TC to Sun now. There's no reason for delay. > > Personally, I'd be in favor of deprecating the use of foreign attributes and > elements altogether, or at least limiting its use severely. With ODF 1.2 > metadata we have a preferred framework for extending ODF, a framework that > does not rely on foreign attributes and elements. There is no ODF 1.2, only a draft so unstable that it is of no practical use for the profile development work on this TC. E.g., Microsoft drew the line on supporting ODF 1.1 natively and joined the ODF TC to work on ODF 1.2. If you have some kind of written assurance from Microsoft that the RDF Metadata stays in ODF 1.2 rather than bringing over the OOXML Custom Metadata to ODF 1.2, I'd love to see it. There is also the very significant barrier that Sun, IBM, et ilk, gutted the Metadata SC's work at the last minute by removing all metadata preservation requirements, replacing all occurrences of "shall preserve" with "should preserve" throughout the SC's work. I'm still waiting for a use case exposing the necessity of those changes that could not be handled by a "shall preserve unless" grammatical construct that lists the needed exceptions. Trashing RDF metadata by conformant apps is fully authorized in the ODF 1.2 draft regardless of the impacts on round-trip interop. Bottom line: the foreign elements and attributes are the only present means of round-tripping documents between an app that does not extend the spec and those that do. Unless the ODF TC suddenly acquires any intererest in round-trip interoperability and fixes the Metadata SC's work, the RDF metadata work in ODF v. 1.2 is no standard-based interop solution. Same-o, same-o: ODF underspecification. An app that trashes RDF metadata required for interop purposes is a conformant ODF app under the current draft ODF v. 1.2. You have to break compatibility with ODF v. 1.2 to use the RDF metadata in profile work. I had two alternative goals in my use case proposal: [i] getting a conversation started with IBM about real world ODF interop issues; or [ii] failing that, to establish yet further compelling evidence that IBM talks the ODF interop talk but won't even talk about walking the ODF interop walk. On this particular proposal, thank you for at least giving me my second choice. IBM's failure to address my use cases in terms responsive to its previous interop talk in your article and in Bob Sutor's and in terms of the same legal arguments IBM is making to DG Competition cinches the antitrust noose around IBM's throat even tighter. IBM has an unmistakable double standard, what quality of interop it demands of Microsoft and what quality of interop it provides itself. I predict that you and Bob are going to be very popular witnesses with the antitrust sharks when they move in to kick off the ODF antitrust litigation and begin picking the meat from IBM's bones. Just as a general observation, collusive oligopolies usually fare no better in antitrust litigation than abusive monopolies. I think IBM has very serious liablity exposure in its double standard on OOXML and ODF interop. There's big money for the Plaintiffs' Bar in that kind of double standard and Microsoft's joining of the ODF oligopoly just adds more meat to be picked from the corporate bones of the oligopoly. E.g., here's what IBM and Sun told the world through ECIS about ODF at the same time it was nailing Microsoft at DG Competition on the same subject in regard to OOXML: "The merits of ODF have already been established by its wide industry adoption. As noted above, numerous PPA vendors have implemented support for it in their products both on Windows and on other operating systems. Such widespread adoption is only possible because ODF is *fully disclosed and created to allow for document interoperability by making it easy for various applications to exchange documents with full fidelity, i.e., without any loss of data or formatting of the document."* European Commitee for Interoperable Systems (ECIS), Open Document Formats as an Enabler of Interoperability: Comparison of the OASIS OpenDocument format and Microsoft Office Open XML.(Undated but my copy is file-stamped 07/2/07.). Formerly at <http://www.ecis.eu/inter/documents/ECIS_ODF_OOXML_comparison.pdf>. In other words, a bald-faced lie, the ODF interop myth. How does IBM reconcile its claim through ECIS about the present state of ODF specificity and quality of standard-enabled interop with the existence of a TC formation notice that suggests making recommendations to the ODF TC to improve interop among the subjects to be addressed by the proposed TC? And here's what IBM through ECIS still tells the world: "Interoperability is a cornerstone of the ICT industry. In today's networked ICT environments, devices do not function purely on their own, but must interact with other programs and devices. A device that cannot interoperate with the other products with which consumers expect it to interoperate is essentially worthless. It is interoperability that drives competition on the merits and innovation. The ability of different computer products to interoperate allows consumers to choose among them. Because consumers can choose among them, interoperable products must compete with one another, and it is this competition that has driven innovation in the software industry." <http://www.ecis.eu/inter/index.html>. You offer only unadulteratedt bullshit in response to my use case proposal, Rob. Tell Sutor for me that I am weary beyond belief of him yanking your strings and that it's past time for him to join this meeting himself and do his own negotiating with me. I know that you are not the IBM guy calling the shots here and I have no issues with you at a personal level. Let's get the IBM ODF puppet master into this meeting and start talking about IBM taking that first step on the ODF interop walk. I've heard more than enough of the IBM ODF interop talk. Time for action rather than bullshit. Warmest personal regards, Paul -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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