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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] Proposed Use case -- Interoperability in vertical and horizontal ODF markets
On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Thomas Zander <zander@kde.org> wrote: > On Saturday 28. June 2008 19:52:53 marbux wrote: > Thats not true, that usecase is only possible by accident. Instead that part > was designed for allowing an implementation to have a feature that is not > (yet) in ODF. Wrong according to Gary Edwards. He was on the TC and very active when the foreign elements and attributes parts of the conformance section were developed. Neither you nor Rob were yet members. The way Gary tells it over and over is that the foreign elements and attributes chunks of the conformance section are a compatibility framework developed by interop wizard Phil Boutros of Stellent, which markets conversion filters for over 400 file formats and a host of apps built atop their conversion filters. The foreign elements and attributes parts of the conformance section were specifically designed for round-tripping documents between apps that support ODF and apps that don't via conversions. The *primary* barrier the Phase 1 developers of ODF were looking at was as follows: If there were conversion filters in ODF apps for converting between MS Office formats and the ODF implementations were writing different markup to store MS Office metadata they didn't support, the ODF implementations would have issues in sharing documents amongst either other that were converted from Microsoft formats before returning them to MS Office formats. If ODF was going to break the monopoly through the combined efforts of its competitors, the ODF implementations had to have a standard way of embracing the Microsoft formats. Otherwise, every major ODF implementation would be an island in its conversations with MS Office. Because they were dealing with a monopoly, they could achieve no networking effects in their combined efforts to break the monopoly absent a common compatibility framework for conversations with MS Office. The compatibility framework was also intended to allow legacy apps to support the ODF standard and still round-trip documents between their legacy in-memory binary representations (IMBR) of documents and ODF formats without data loss. E.g., this is where the ODF document settings extensions interop mess originated from, legacy apps like OOo that had to store document settings in ODF for backward compatibility with the existing code base reasons. Foreign elements and attributes were the only means provided by ODF. There were also feature mismatches between the apps of the major developers who worked on Phase 1 of ODF 1.0 development like Corel and Sun. To round trip documents with each other without data loss, they needed a standardized way of creating the extensions they needed and processing each other's extensions to preserve metadata needed for the return trip. That's what the foreign elements and attributes compatibility framework provided. The foreign elements and attributes chunks of the conformance section were also designed as a compatibility framework for the embracers and extenders of ODF to have a standardized way of processing extensions and preserving the extension metadata required for the round trip. So you got this part right, but you missed that it was not originally a blank check for folks to create extensions without worrying about the processing of the extensions by other apps. Go back and read the conformance section using the RFC 2119 definition of "may" that was in OASIS ODF 1.0. <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt>. I you do and spend some time thinking about it, you'll see a compatibility framework for round-tripping documents, not a blank check to create extensions without worrying how other apps will process them. Maybe then you will finally begin to acquire a glimmer of the Durusau Massacre of ODF at JTC 1 when he switched the standard from RFC 2119 requirement keyword definitions to ISO/IEC Guidelines Part 2 Annex H definitions, *after the OASIS ODF 1.0 standard had been unanimously adopted by the NBs.* That was way, way more than an editorial correction. You will also notice in the conformance section that reading it with the modal definition of "may" the standard was designed around that imposes two *mandatory* interoperability requirements on every occurrence of "may" in the standard, OOo would be prohibited from eating non-extended ODF elements and attributes indiscriminately. So if the confornance section was working as designed and conformantly implemented in OOo, you wouldn't have to write things like this: "One thing I have always dreamed to be possible is that when I write a doc in KOffice I can then open it in OOo to use that one feature that's useful to me and then save it and continue in KOffice without loosing [sic] lots of data. "Its still a dream, of course. Most features are lost on opening and saving it in OOo, but its [sic] a nice goal [.]" <http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200709/msg00032.html>. And of course if the RFC 2119 definition of "may" was still on the clause that says that conformant apps "may" write foreign elements and attributes in their own namespaces, every conformant editor would be required to be able to write to unextended ODF. But just about all the the foreign element and attribute rules about preservation and processing of them went out the window when RFC 2119 went away. And the closing paragraph of the conformance section that says there are no rules about what elements and attributes must be supported got transformed into an authorization to trash other conforming apps' unextended ODF. > The important distinction here is that other ODF implementations can read 99% > of the doc. Can but don't have to. They also can but don't have to preserve unextended conformant elements and attributes See your quote above. I think your own reported experience with OWriter and KWord teaches that your 99 percent figure is more than a tad bit off. "*Most* features are lost on opening and saving it in OOo." Those are your own words, Thomas, and "most" means more than half. So, marbux, your disagreement is based on a misunderstanding. > ODF is not meant to be used for a document created by an application that > does not support ODF. Wrong. See above. > Any support for that usecase is purely coincidental and not a supported > usecase of ODF. It certainly looks like its off topic for the proposed TC. Supposedly, this proposed TC is about ODF interop. And Rob has already ruled that "interop with other formats" is on-topic. <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/oiic-formation-discuss/200806/msg00357.html>. > To OASIS; is there some code-of-conduct that people have to abide by on the > OASIS mailinglists? I asked Rob to create some but he refused. I see the mails from Paul have a returning theme, they > put into bad light respected members of our community. The continued > bad-wording of those respected people makes me weary of replying and of > sharing my experiences here. But no issues with the folks running around the list calling me names like Andy Updegrove and Pam Jones, eh? Coming from one of the guys on the TC who gang-brutalized Florian Reuter and who personally sent me emails trying to convince me that Florian was a "code monkey," you don't have a lot of room to complain, Thomas. Those "respected members of our community" you refer to, including yourself, are the ones who made ODF such a holy interop mess. You yourself sold compatibility with ODF 1.0 and 1.1 and roud-trippability with MS Office down the river in ODF 1.2 so you wouldn't have to write a conversion filter for the way you implemented ODF in the earlier versions. Where were you the whole time IBM and Sun have been telling the world that ODF already was interoperable because it was open. Hiding on the ODF TC and the ODF Adoption TC begging Sun and IBM for more crumbs? Nearly as I can tell, you chose long ago to be part of the ODF interop problem rather than its solution and you've certainly acted as though you have been indifferent to your users' interop needs. > ps. for people that don't know me, I'm a core-developer of KWord, the word > processor of KOffice. The often used quote to describe KOffice is that its > the second main ODF implementation. Second main non-interoperable ODF implementation and one of the guys who helped stop the only folks who were actually pushing the interop issue on the TC. You've got a record to advertise, Thomas, if you ever want to get a paying job at IBM or Sun. But I doubt your users would be so thrilled if they comprehended what you have done and tolerated. Best regards, Paul E. Merrell, J.D. (Marbux) -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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