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Subject: Re: [opendocument-users] Adding tables to ODP files
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Jan Wildeboer <jwildebo@redhat.com> wrote: > There must be better places to discuss TC stuff, marbux. Seeing you > hijacking almost every single thread with technical questions for your > political rants is NOT helping the original posters that simply want an > answer to their specific question. > > Please be so nice and create your own threads instead of hijacking normal > traffic. > > Thanks for listening. Nettiquette still matters. No matter how '95 it seems. > You are behaving trollish sometimes. You responded to precisely zero of my substantive points and none of my evidence. You challenge my manners but point to no specific words I said that you purportedly regard as a breach of Netiquette. My conclusion: Your post an unmistakable argumentum ad hominem abusive, an informal fallacy of the red herring variety. <http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html>. Your argument attacks my purported bad manners rather than the merits of my substantive points. Moreover, you have not supported your argument with any evidence, failing to identify a single specific example of something I said that you allegedly regard as ill-mannered. This, of course functions to leave me with nothing concrete to respond to. As Rob Weir once said: "You could dispute the facts I present. You could argue against my logic if you wish. But you have done neither. You merely resort to ad hominen attacks. I'll take that as an expression of your frustration at not finding a hole in my argument." <http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20090503215045379&title=This%20personal%20angle..&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=754336#c754342>. As to your factual allegations 1. Frequency of Posts to Threads on This List "[E]very single thread," Jan? According to my Gmail account, I have not posted to this list since last June and there have been many intervening threads. You have wildly exaggerated the frequency of my participation on this list. Please do some fact-checking before you make your accusations. 2. My Alleged Hijacking of This Thread On this particular thread, Bart and Dennis provided the information the original poster requested and he has not been seen since. I therefore presume that the original poster was satisfied with the information he received. My first post in this thread quoted and responded to a specific statement that Dennis made regarding the possible removal from ODF 1.2 of the existing Appendix identifying core attributes and elements. I provided historical context, citations, and links to my authorities. Rob Weir responded and I replied to his post, again providing historical context, citations, and links to my authorities. Rob responded and I replied again, again providing evidence for my position. That was my last post in this thread until this post. It would appear that if I hijacked this thread abandoned by the original poster, so did Rob Weir. Why do you have no corresponding criticism of his behavior? 3. My Alleged 'Rants' I'll confine the discussion to what I wrote about in this thread so we don't have to review everything I've ever written anywhere; okay? First, as the co-author of three treatises, a former typographer for two decades who had to answer to very tough proofreaders, a retired lawyer who excelled in writing winning legal briefs, and a near life-long student of the English language, I am very conscious of the tone and quality of my written words. I have closely re-examined what I wrote in this thread and I have double-checked my understanding of the "rant." <http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=rant> I have found nothing I wrote in this thread that falls my understanding of that word. I wrote in a calm tone, discussing matters so weighty that they are the subject of international law, provided quotations, citations, hyperlinks, and a reasoned explanation of my position. I also gave the same treatment to evidence in the form of prior statements by the person I was speaking to and by other employees of his company. I also asked a few questions politely and calmly. You may be uncomfortable with discussion of relevant legal authorities or the particular points I raised, but your discomfort does not somehow compel the conclusion that what I wrote were "rants." Because my own careful evaluation of what I wrote convinces me otherwise and you have provided no evidence that would cast a sense of "rant" on what I wrote, I am left to ponder whether you used that word only for its emotive effect without concern to its actual fit with what I had said. That would be consistent with your allegation of my alleged "trollish" behavior, which likewise was unsupported by any cited evidence. 4. Alleged 'Political' Nature of What I Wrote You also tacked the adjective "political" onto your slinging of the "rants" accusation. If you view the absence in ODF of "conformity requirements that are essential to achieve the interoperability" as a political issue, I would appreciate you informing me on which side of that "political" issue you and your employer are encamped. That quoted language happens to be a threshold mandatory *technical* requirement for all JTC 1 standards absent the express consent of the Secretaries-General of ISO and IEC. See JTC 1 Directives section 1.2 and Annex I, <http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2489/186491/186605/Chapter1.html>, <http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2489/186491/186605/AnnexI.html>. Although differently worded, it also happens to be a legal requirement imposed upon all private standards bodies within the territories of nations (and the E.U.) that have acceded to the Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade. See ibid., <http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/17-tbt_e.htm#annexIII>, Articles 3.1, 4.1 (applicability), and Appendix 3(E) ("The standardizing body shall ensure that standards are not prepared, adopted or applied with a view to, or with the effect of, creating unnecessary obstacles to international trade"). The case that non-interoperability of ODF implementations creates unnecessary obstacles to international trade is easily made out against IBM, Sun, Red Hat, and other members of the European Committee for Interoperable Systems by reference to a prior statement posted to the Web several years ago: "Interoperability is a cornerstone of the ICT industry. In today's networked ICT environments, devices do not function purely on their own, but must interact with other programs and devices. A device that cannot interoperate with the other products with which consumers expect it to interoperate is essentially worthless. It is interoperability that drives competition on the merits and innovation. The ability of different computer products to interoperate allows consumers to choose among them. Because consumers can choose among them, interoperable products must compete with one another, and it is this competition that has driven innovation in the software industry." <http://www.ecis.eu/inter/index.html>. Of course, those same companies participated as parties in the proceedings leading to the landmark interoperability legal decision in the case of Commission v. Microsoft, European Community Court of First Instance (Grand Chamber Judgment of 17 September, 2007), para. 230, 374, 421, <http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/gettext.pl?where=&lang=en&num=79929082T19040201&doc=T&ouvert=T&seance=ARRET> (rejecting Microsoft's argument that "interoperability" has a 1-way rather than 2-way meaning; information technology specifications must be disclosed with sufficient specificity to place competitors on an "equal footing" in regard to interoperability; "the 12th recital to Directive 91/250 defines interoperability as 'the ability to exchange information and mutually to use the information which has been exchanged'"). Notice the the very close resemblance of that definition just quoted with the corresponding definition of "interoperability" in JTC 1 Directives: "[T]he ability of two or more IT systems to exchange information at one or more standardised interfaces and to make mutual use of the information that has been exchanged." <http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2489/186491/186605/AnnexI.html>. These are companies that would start with an evidentiary handicap in attempting to persuade a subsequent tribunal that they do not understand the critical legal and technical importance of sufficient specificity in technical specifications to place implementing competitors on an equal footing. They have asserted the same body of law in their own interests and prevailed. Would a tribunal interpreting the Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade arrive at a different definition of interoperability? I suspect not. Under the TBT Agreement, Article 2.4, "Where technical regulations are required and relevant international standards exist or their completion is imminent, Members shall use them, or the relevant parts of them, as a basis for their technical regulations[.]" <http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/17-tbt_e.htm#articleII>. Unmistakably, international standards must fulfill the requirements for "technical regulations." Those requirements include specification of [i] *"any* objectively definable 'features', 'qualities', 'attributes', or other 'distinguishing mark'" [ii] of an identifiable product or group of products [iii] only in mandatory "must" or "must not" terms. WTDS 135 EC - Asbestos, (World Trade Organization Appellate Body; 12 March 2001; HTML version), para. 66-70, <http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds135_e.htm> (emphasis added), reaffirmed, WTDS 231 EC - Sardines (World Trade Organization Appellate Body; 26 September 2002; DOC version), pp. 41-51, <http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds231_e.htm>. In other words, the degree of specificity required by JTC 1 Directives in regard to interoperability is implicit in the Appellate Panel's Asbestos decision. Would the European Commission adopt a different interpretation of "interoperability" in the context of an action directed against a standards organization and its members rather than against a monopoly vendor? Again, the precedents cause me to suspect not. For example, the issue of interoperability in regard to a private standards organization was before the Commission in 87/69/EEC: Commission Decision of 15 December 1986 relating to a proceeding under Article 85 of the EEC Treaty (IV/31.458 - X/Open Group), OJ L 035 , 06/02/1987 P. 0036 - 0043, <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31987D0069:EN:HTML>. Notice that EEC Article 85 has since been renumbered as Article 81 in the consolidated version and can be viewed at <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:12002E081:EN:NOT>. In that case, the Commission concluded that the specifications to be adopted by the consortium of US and European companies that had formed the X/Open Group would constitute "agreements between undertakings" and therefore subject to the antitrust prohibition in Article 85(1). X/Open Group para. 28-29. The Commission, however, entered a five-year suspension of that prohibition pursuant to Article 85(3) subject to conditions. See Articles1 and 2 following para. 53. Although discussed in more detail, the Commission's critical relevant holding was that " the intended creation of a wider availability of software and greater flexibility offered to users to change between hardware and software from different sources easily outweigh the distortions of competition entailed in the rules governing membership which are indispensable to the attainment of the objectives of the Group Agreement." Para. 42. "The Commission considers that the willingness of the Group to make available the results as quickly as possible is an essential element in its decision to grant an exemption." Ibid. There is also the factor that monopolists also participate in standards development and that imposition of a different required level of specificity in the standard-setting process therefore could result in conflicting obligations. Moreover, both EEC Articles 81 and 82 share the same goal of maintaining competitive markets. One may therefore predict with some confidence that the European Commission would re-embrace its "equal footing" Microsoft precedent if presented with a suitable case under EEC Article 81 involving the standard-setting process. And so one can reasonably perceive a common thread between international law, JTC 1 Directives, and E.U. antitrust law in regard to the degree of specificity required in technical specifications whether those specifications are for monopoly software or a software standard developed by an industry consortium of large and small players. The Court of First Instance summed up that common thread nicely in its Microsoft decision, disclosure of specifications with sufficient specificity to place competitors on an "equal footing" in regard to interoperability. So far from being a rant, my discussion of the more than seven-year delay in enabling "users to change between ... software from different sources" and my questions about the ODF TC's schedule for providing the necessary specifications was directed specifically to criteria announced in the case law. To my knowledge, OASIS has sought no relevant exemption pursuant to E.U. antitrust procedures and is more than two years past the period granted by the Commission in its precedent most squarely on point, the X/Open Group matter. The fact that the ODF TC does not even yet have a work item to specify "clearly and unambiguously the conformity requirements that are essential to achieve the interoperability" and proposes to soon release yet another iteration of the specification without such provisions is cause for reasonable and serious concern, as is the TC Co-Chair's renewed announcement on this list of intent to provide only incremental improvements in interoperability specificity from version to version of ODF. I am an ODF user. I was lured to use and publicly endorse those formats by a long series of knowingly false and misleading public statements about ODF interoperability issued by IBM and Sun, but find myself locked into a single implementing code base in blatant violation of law on multiple continents. But there stands the ODF TC without even a work item on its agenda, after more than seven years, to specify "clearly and unambiguously the conformity requirements that are essential to achieve the interoperability." So from my viewpoint it is a technical and legal issue, not a political issue, a major failure to fulfill the ODF TC's fundamental responsibility in over seven years --- through multiple iterations of the specification --- to produce a pro-competitive standard that complies with the meta-standards provided by JTC 1 Directives, the TBT Agreement, and antitrust law. What conceivable basis is there for your characterization of that as a "political issue?" I am not arguing for the law or JTC 1 Directives to be changed, which would be political; I am calling for them to be obeyed, which is not so far as I can see a political issue. It is a simple matter of willingness to comply. (That is not intended to imply that bringing ODF into compliance with the law and JTC 1 Directives would be a simple task, but the issue of *whether* to do so is far from complex.) Do you want an example of a political statement from the other side of this issue? Try this one: "The major benefit of open standards is interoperability. Open standards facilitate and ensure interoperability. Interoperability is essential for future ICT ecosystems in a networked global environment with an increasing need for machine-to-machine connectivity: my software needs to talk to your software; my process needs to interact with your process. ... "... ODF has been successfully implemented by a number of vendors and application developers. Implementations include OpenOffice; Star Office; Google Docs & Spreadsheets; K-Office; Scribus; Abiword; ajaxWrite; Zoho Writer; Ichitaro; IBM Lotus/Domino; IBM Workplace; Mobile Office; Gnumeric; Neo Office; Hancom Office. In other words: all of these applications use the same standard, ODF; all of them produce files with the extension .odt for text documents, .ods for spreadsheets and .odp for presentations; *and these files can be opened, read and edited by either application implementing the ODF standard. This is interoperability at its best. "Consequently, customers freely choose the applications based on look and feel, functionality, cost, or other criteria, without worrying about purchasing a specific, single-vendor software in order to work with their documents. ..."* Trond Arne Undheim and Jochen Friedrich, "The Momentum of Open Standards - a Pragmatic Approach to Software Interoperability," 5 European J. ePractice, pp. 7-8 (31 October 2008), <http://www.epractice.eu/files/ePractice-Journal-Volume-5.pdf>. (Note that Undheim works for Oracle, Friedrich for IBM's corporate standards team.) See also similar publication by Friedrich in December 2008, <http://jfopen.blogspot.com/2008/12/standards-bodies-should-use-standards.html>. "The European Journal of ePractice is a digital publication on eTransformation by ePractice.eu, a portal created by the European Commission to promote the sharing of good practices in eGovernment, eHealth and eInclusion." Ibid. So we clearly look at a political action, lobbying government for commercial advantage, but basing that appeal on an outright fabrication that could not be farther from the truth. In the passage highlighted above, IBM and Oracle urge on government users the ODF Interoperability Myth in lieu of striving on the ODF TC to make that myth come true. Words are far cheaper than relevant action and the OpenOffice.org ODF oligopoly of big vendors is thus sheltered from a level competitive playing field. There is an enormous tension between the information that IBM freely dispenses to the public and its actions on the ODF TC. (Very long list of quotations, citations, and links omitted.) Of course IBM has no monopoly on such misrepresentations. Sun does it too. E.g.: "Office productivity applications and the documents they create are key to today's knowledge economy. Information critical to the long term functioning of any organization is stored in the spreadsheets, presentations, and text documents its employees create," said Michael Brauer of Sun Microsystems, chair of the OASIS OpenDocument Technical Committee. "Today, for the first time in the 25-year history of office applications, such documents can be stored in an open, *standardized, and vendor-independent format."* OASIS News, Members Approve OpenDocument as OASIS Standard (23 May 2005), <http://www.oasis-open.org/news/oasis_news_05_23_05.php> (emphasis added). "Standardized?" "Vendor-independent?" Sure, and that is undoubtedly why IBM urges, "Let's work to make OpenOffice.org be the full reference implementation for ODF!" <http://www.robweir.com/blog/publications/Interoperability-Barcelona.pdf>, slide 22. And undoubtedly that is why IBM castigates Microsoft for not implementing spreadsheet formulas in its ODF 1.1 support the way OpenOffice.org implements them. E.g., <http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html>. ("First, we might hear that ODF 1.1 does not define spreadsheet formulas and therefore it is not necessary for one vendor to use the same formula language that other vendors use. This is certainly is true if your sole goal is to claim conformance.") "Standardized" but non-interoperable yet conforming? "Vendor-independent?" I submit that both terms were materially misleading when uttered in 2005 and still are. Here is another example of a political statement from Sun: "The agreement is part of UNESCO's ongoing effort to improve digital inclusion globally by partnering with the private sector. Under its terms, Sun Microsystems and UNESCO will promote the use of open source technologies, including OpenOffice.org and OpenDocument Format (ODF) standard, as a low-cost way to improve education with universal access to information and knowledge." Anon., UNESCO and Sun Microsystems Announce Joint Education and Community Development Effort Powered by Open Technologies, Sun Microsystems news release (22 May 2009), <http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090522005095&newsLang=en>. So according to Sun the U.N. will provide "universal access to information and knowledge" with OpenOffice.org and OpenDocument Format" (sic)? Isn't that a political statement? How is one to run OpenOffice.org on a netbook, a mobile device, or the OLPC XO-1 laptop? And since OOo is too much of a resource hog to run on such machines, what ODF implementation will run on them that can interoperate with OpenOffice.org using ODF? My answers to those questions are "you can't" and "none unless you like disappearing data." See e.g., the sources cited and linked in my comment on the following blog page regarding the actual state of ODF implementation interoperability. <http://www.nwprogressive.org/weblog/2009/01/review-free-openofficeorg-writer.html>. How is that "universal access to information and knowledge?" Universal access without interoperability? Gee, that seems to boil down to a single code base for all. But how do we get that pig to run on mobile devices, netbooks, and the OLPC laptop? 5. Netiquette Is it good Netiquette to knowingly mislead the world about the state of the ODF specification and the interoperability of its implementations in lieu of a serious and determined effort to make the ODF Interop Myth come true? What shelter does that myth provide your company if and when the competition regulators come knocking at the doors of the ODF TC's membership? "'Red Hat is a strong advocate of the use of royalty-free, open standards in the technology industry. We look forward to continued collaboration not only with other major technology companies, but also with important global government agencies, that as end users of technology offer a unique perspective on the importance of interoperability for office applications,' said Tom Rabon, executive vice president, Corporate Affairs for Red Hat. <http://xml.coverpages.org/OIC-TC-Announce200811.html>. Tell me, Jan, does Red Hat support adoption of ODF 1.2 without that proposed standard specifying "clearly and unambiguously the conformity requirements that are essential achieve the interoperability?" Please go back and read the post that started this thread? Do you think developers would have to ask such questions and get such disappointing answers in response if ODF were adequately specified? Thanks for listening, but I hope you might go beyond listening to provide some non-evasive responses to such questions. The answers matter a lot to we software users who actually understand what's going on. Like the competition regulators, we'd much prefer choice to vendor lock-in. And we'd rather have answers to such questions than lectures on etiquette. YMMV. Best regards, Paul E. Merrell, J.D. (Marbux) -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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