-----Original Message-----
From: Gearard Woods [mailto:gewoods@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wed 8/4/2004 2:01 PM
To: Jeff Bohren
Cc: provision@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [provision] SPML 2.0 Relationships proposal...Jeff,
My understanding was that the reason we wanted creation of containment relationships at the same time as the PSO was to address problems with things like groupOfNames or groupOfUniqueNames, that require a member to be specified. At least that was the discussion I remember from the F2F. I don't necessarily think that this is reason enough to shape the whole relationship approach though. I'm not sure what other resources make containment immutable. Perhaps an example would be persuasive.
I think the terminology I used in my suggestion is causing some misunderstandings. In the COS Relationship interface, a relationship is defined as a collection of roles. These are not roles in the sense used in the provisioning world, they are the roles that objects play in a given relationship. "Contained" is a role, for example, and "Contains" is a role. A Containment relationship is comprised of these roles. It sounds like you didn't get a chance to look at the schema I sent out, which should make this clear, but maybe a name change would help if it's still confusing. There are, in my mind, very few restrictions placed on users of the relationship model I suggested and certainly all of your examples can be easily accommodated. I think it might be more extensible even.
The argument for doing a create of an object and its relationship in a single operation is a good one. Perhaps the use of a relationship operation in a batch would satisfy us both. Fundamentally, I'm just not keen on the idea of extending core requests such as add, modify, and search to incorporate different kinds of relationships. It seems inconsistent to me to use one operation when you want to just add an item, and another when you want to add it and and do something else. And search seems very convoluted. I'm not sure it's a good pattern to propagate in future capabilities either. What I'd prefer would be that there is a single, consitent way to manipulate objects and a capability providing a single consistent way to manage relationships. Overloading a basic set of operations might seem simpler but I don't think it always leads to the appropriate interface for a given application.
Gerry"Jeff Bohren" <jbohren@opennetwork.com>
"Jeff Bohren" <jbohren@opennetwork.com>
08/03/2004 08:05 PM
To: <provision@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc:
Subject: RE: [provision] SPML 2.0 Relationships proposal...
You are correct that there is no hard requirement that you be able to create a reference on a PSO when you create it. However this is often a hard requirement for containment. In many resources the containment of a PSO is immutable once the PSO is created.
I do not agree with using role relationships explicitly. While role is one commonly used kind of reference relationship, it is only one of many. For instance PSO representing a computing resource might be “owned” by a PSO for a user. There could be a reference to a core identity PSO to all of the PSOs representing its provisioned accounts. A mainframe account PSO could have references to the PSOs representing terminals that the user can log in from. Expressing reference relationships in terms of roles is just far too restrictive.
To me setting and removing relationships on an existing PSO is a kind of modification. I don’t see any reason why you should not be able to add a reference and an attribute to a PSO in the same request. I also don’t see why you should not be able to create a PSO with both attributes and relationships. If you know all of the information about a PSO at creation time, then why shouldn’t it be one request? That seems much simpler to me. As in my previous email, I see the operations as:
Add (id, data)
Add (container, id, data)
Add (container, id, data, references)
Modify (id, data)
Modify (id, data, references)
Move (id, container)
Why make it more complicated that this?
I was not assuming that we don’t use full XPath expressiveness. The problem I was trying to solve is how to create a search query that combines the XPath expressions needed to select based on the PSO data with the expressions needed to select based on the PSO reference information. If you can suggest a way to do that with only XPath, I would be open to it.
I agree we still have more work to do on the modify request. I will also take a look the modification type problem.
Jeff Bohren
Product Architect
OpenNetwork Technologies, Inc
Try the industry's only 100% .NET-enabled identity management software. Download your free copy of Universal IdP Standard Edition today. Go to www.opennetwork.com/eval.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gearard Woods [mailto:gewoods@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:16 PM
To: Jeff Bohren
Cc: provision@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [provision] SPML 2.0 Relationships proposal...
Jeff,
It's great to have a straw man to focus on. I just have a few comments and questions. It seems to me that the approach of extending core operations, particularly for add, is driven mostly by the problem that we discussed at the F2F, i.e. the need to have a PSO available when the relationship is created. Is this really a valid constraint to place on ourselves? I'd like to revisit this because I would prefer that we not use derived operations in general - my preference would be for a relationship interface that is not so coupled to the core operations. For example, I was imagining something similar to the Cos Relationships model. In that world view, a relationship is simply a collection of roles. I've attached a schema that reflects something like the same model. If we were to follow in spirit of this approach, the schema would be accompanied by an operational interface primarily consisting of operations like:
Relationship create(Roles roles);
Relationship add(Relationship relationship, Role role);
Relationship remove(Relationship relationship, Role role);
Relationships remove(Role role);
Relationships getRelationships(PSOIdentifier pso, Role role);
Relationships getRelationships(PSOIdentifier pso);
Roles getRoles(PSOIdentifier pso);
...and so on, or something like it.
There are a couple of things in the proposal that reflect problems that I see in the core schema:
1. Modifications. We still have not fully filled out the modification portions of the schema.
2. Search. We talked before about being more specific in the definition of a search syntax. I am still in favour of doing that. When I was suggesting a subset of XPath though, I wasn't suggesting that we eliminate all of the XPath expressions. In particular I think it would make sense to keep the boolean expressions (and, or, !=, =, <=, <, >, >=). If we did opt for a well-defined XPath-like syntax then it wouldn't make sense in my mind to redefine these types of expressions here. This whole subject warrants more discussion in my view.
By the way, there seems to be an error on line 138 of version 5 of the schema. I think 'type="spml:ModifyRequestType"' should in fact be 'type="spml:ModificationType"'. Also, on line 189 the use of an element and an any in the sequence is problematic. I changed the "appliesTo" element to an attribute to get around this.
Gerry
(See attached file: relationship_example.xsd)"Jeff Bohren" <jbohren@opennetwork.com>
;)
"Jeff Bohren" <jbohren@opennetwork.com>
08/02/2004 09:36 PM
To: <provision@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc:
Subject: [provision] SPML 2.0 Relationships proposal...
Attached is the first draft of my proposal for handling relationships. This covers both containment and references. It supports references with attributes. It also supports relationships (both kinds) as search criteria and also as search results. I believe that this proposal meets all of the requirements discussed so far.
This proposal is based on draft 5 of the SPML 2.0 schema.
Jeff Bohren
Product Architect
OpenNetwork Technologies, Inc
Try the industry's only 100% .NET-enabled identity management software. Download your free copy of Universal IdP Standard Edition today. Go to www.opennetwork.com/eval.
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#### ONT Relationships Proposal v1.doc has been removed from this note on August 03, 2004 by Gearard Woods
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