Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?

["David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>]

Joe,

I grabbed the big ticket ones.

I can go down the list a lot further - talk about the agony the
AIAG and OAG project teams are finding on coming up with
WSDL models that will get the business job done, and so
forth.

If the top two on the list are the most popular BP engines people
are looking to use right now - you sure as heck don;t need
to look much further than that already!!!

DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
Cc: <chris.hipson@bt.com>; <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>;
<regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services
Evolution?


> Yes - but I believe that you originally characterized the situation (a
> "disconnect") as much more grave than that. I was expecting to see a
> very long list, rather than 2 examples.
>
> Joe
>
> David RR Webber wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > See the BPEL TC work - and the issues BPSS and ebMS
> > is having trying to make some sort of WSDL works OK.
> >
> > DW.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > > >
> > > > It's certainly a very different model and approach from
> > > > OASIS CPA - which is heavily business-centric in
> > > > many ways - and this is the disconnect.  People are
> > > > trying to use WSDL to described business
> > > > interactions and it was never designed for that.
> > >
> > > Examples of such "people"?
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > > WSDL is the way it is because of its original
> > > > requirements and use case design.  Its hard to
> > > > go back and retool that - and there is where this
> > > > sits.  The same thing applies to XSD too.  The
> > > > W3C is solving a different set of problems than
> > > > people are expecting to be able to solve.
> > > >
> > > > DW.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <chris.hipson@bt.com>
> > > > To: <david@drrw.info>; <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>;
> > > > <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>;
> > > > <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 4:12 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web
> > Services
> > > > Evolution?
> > > >
> > > > David Webber said
> > > >
> > > > "from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL."
> > > >
> > > > In what areas are WSDL unsustainable?  What improvements would be
> > > > required to 'make it work'?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Chris Hipson
> > > > Web Service Technology Consultant
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: David RR Webber [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> > > > Sent: 24 March 2004 20:44
> > > > To: Chiusano Joseph; ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org;
> > > > regrep@lists.oasis-open.org; ebSOA
> > > > Subject: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web
Services
> > > > Evolution?
> > > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >
> > > > You remind me of Nelson on the deck of the Victory at the
> > > > Battle of the Nile - "I see no ships!"  (looking with his
> > > > blind-eye through his telescope)....
> > > >
> > > > Web services is not even close to being finished yet - and
> > > > a whole chunk of it is futilely recreating ebXML functionality,
> > > > but from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL.
> > > >
> > > > Let's be clear here - Bob Sutor's decision was deterimental
> > > > to everything and driven by his own self-interest - and by
> > > > Microsoft and IBM thinking they could get there first.
> > > >
> > > > Well they did not, and they have merely succeeded in
> > > > confusing the marketplace and adding much wasted time
> > > > to the whole process - including mine in typing this and
> > > > yours in reading it.  Customers would already be buying
> > > > consistent ebSOA were it not for their confusion caused
> > > > by web service FUD.
> > > >
> > > > I'm throughly disinterested in the web service fraternity
> > > > continued efforts to re-write history and make like today
> > > > they have everything working better than ebXML.
> > > >
> > > > First it was 'web services is simpler than ebXML - which
> > > > is too complicated".  Now its - 'web services are more
> > > > complete than ebXML - which is only limited and old'.
> > > >
> > > > Fact is - ebXML is well suited to its mission profile and
> > > > therefore is coherent and consistent.  And like any
> > > > great technology - ebXML is evolving, maturing and
> > > > growing.  Web services are anything but - fragmented,
> > > > dispersed and subject to proprietary whims - so what
> > > > did web services learn from ebXML?  Frankly very little.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, DW.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > > > To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>;
"ebSOA"
> > > > <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:31 PM
> > > > Subject: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services
Evolution?
> > > >
> > > > > I'm in a bit of a "controversial" (tongue-in-cheek) mood today, so
I
> > > > > thought I'd through this out and see what comes back. My thoughts
are
> > > > > spurred by a book on that I am currently reading. Please note as
you
> > > > > read this that I am in a position in which I am vendor neutral.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3 years ago, when the first phase of ebXML was getting ready to
wind
> > > > > down, I was a mere observer on various listservs, so I don't have
the
> > > > > perspective of someone who was in the throws of things. However,
I've
> > > > > been thinking: Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services
Evolution?
> > > > >
> > > > > More specifically: I understand that there was a "schism" of sorts
at
> > > > > one point (exactly when I am not sure) in which several major
vendors
> > > > > pulled out of ebXML. These vendors happen to be those that are
> > > > > considered to be the driving forces behind Web Services (by this I
> > > > mean
> > > > > the "SOAP/WSDL/UDDI"). Web Services.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder - if this "schism" did not take place (assuming that it
> > > > indeed
> > > > > did), would Web Services have taken off as quickly as they did?
Did
> > > > this
> > > > > "schism" give more motivation to these vendors to evolve the
"base"
> > > > Web
> > > > > Services standards as quickly as they were evolved? What if these
> > > > > vendors had not pulled out of ebXML? What would the landscape look
> > > > like
> > > > > now?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thoughts? Comments?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind Regards,
> > > > > Joe Chiusano
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the
roster
> > > > of
> > > > the OASIS TC), go to
> > > >
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/regrep/members/leave_workgr
> > > > oup.php.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>