Today's chat log

[Bryan Aupperle <aupperle@us.ibm.com>]

Here are the raw minutes: 

Bryan Aupperle, Ph.D.
STSM, WebSphere Enterprise Platform Software Solution Architect


Research Triangle Park,  NC 
+1 919-254-7508 (T/L 444-7508)
Internet Address: aupperle@us.ibm.com

[11:57] Simon Holdsworth: Audio conference: 

Meeting Number: * 913929 * (press * before and after the digits) 

Phone numbers: 

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UK Toll Free = 08003581667 
USA = 19543344789 
USA & Canada Toll Free = 18665289390

[11:57] Simon Holdsworth: Agenda

[11:57] Simon Holdsworth: 1. Opening 

Introductions 
Roll call 

Scribe assignment 

Top of the scribe list: 
Plamen Pavlov SAP AG 
Tom Rutt Fujitsu Limited 
Eric Johnson TIBCO Software Inc. 
Bryan Aupperle IBM 
Anish Karmarkar Oracle Corporation 
Ashok Malhotra Oracle Corporation 
David Booz IBM 
Laurent Domenech TIBCO Software Inc. 
Martin Chapman Oracle Corporation 

Agenda bashing 

2. Approval of the minutes from 8th April: 

http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/37242/SCA%20Bindings%20minutes%202010-04-08.doc 

3. Actions 

20090211-4 [General] Write up HTTP binding use cases 
20090709-2 [Editors] Update the WS binding schema appendix title to include 1.1 
20100408-1 [Mike Edwards] Raise 3 issues, one for each binding spec, regarding schema UPA issues 

4. New Issues 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-127 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.ws 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-128 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jms 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-129 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jca 

5. Discuss proposed TC schedule 

Updated following discussion on call of 8th April 
Consider date by which open issues are to be closed or deferred; also consider raising open vote to 2/3. 

15th April: Focus on issue BINDINGS-126/UPA issues; continue discussion on production of test case documents/test cases. 
23rd April: cd vote on bindings specs and TA documents; Submit cd04 of bindings specs for second public review; Initial test case documents and test cases prepared for discussion/review 
13th May: Test cases complete 
27th May: Submit cd01 of TA documents and test cases for public review 

6. Open issue discussion 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-126 
binding.ws should REQUIRE support for WS-Policy 
Raiser: Mike Edwards, owner: Unassigned 
Priority: 1 (must do before PR) 
Status: Proposed resolution in JIRA 
Latest email: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings/201004/msg00027.html 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-111 
binding.jms uses JMS URI scheme even though it is not a valid IETF internet draft 
Raiser: Eric Johnson, owner: Unassigned 
Priority: Unassigned 
Status: Pending response from Oracle with respect to approval of the IETF draft 

http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-60 
JMS Default wire format insufficient to cover real world usage 
Raiser: Mike Edwards, owner: Simon Holdsworth 
Priority: 3 (deferred) 
Status: outline proposal in issue 

7. AOB

[12:07] Bryan Aupperle: Scribe: Bryan Aupperle

[12:07] Bryan Aupperle: Topic: Approval of minutes

[12:07] Bryan Aupperle: No corrections or objectives

[12:08] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Minutes approved

[12:08] Bryan Aupperle: Topic: Action Items

[12:08] Bryan Aupperle: 20100408-1 - Done

[12:08] Bryan Aupperle: Others are still pending

[12:09] Bryan Aupperle: Topic: New Issues:

[12:10] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-127: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-127 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.ws

[12:10] Bryan Aupperle: Mike describes issue

[12:13] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Dave - Open Bindings 127

[12:13] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motion passes w/o

[12:13] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-128: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-128 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jms

[12:14] Bryan Aupperle: Mike describes issue

[12:14] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Dave - Open Bindings 128

[12:14] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motion passes w/o

[12:15] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-129: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-129 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jca

[12:15] Bryan Aupperle: Mike describes issue

[12:15] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Dave - Open Bindings 129

[12:15] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motion passes w/o

[12:16] Bryan Aupperle: Topic: Open Issues

[12:16] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-127: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-127 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.ws

[12:17] Bryan Aupperle: Mike reviews proposal in JIRA

[12:17] Simon Holdsworth: Updated proposal in email : http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings/201004/msg00029.html

[12:17] Dave Booz: latest 127 proposal is here: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings/201004/msg00029.html

[12:19] Bryan Aupperle: Mike reviews Anish's comments/updated proposal

[12:19] Mike Edwards: <complexType name="WebServiceBinding"> 
        <complexContent> 
            <extension base="sca:Binding"> 
                <sequence> 
                    <element ref="wsa:endpointReference minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded"/> 
                    <element ref="sca:extensions" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1" /> 
                </sequence> 
                <attribute name="wsdlElement" type="anyURI" use="optional"/> 
                <attribute ref="wsdli:wsdlLocation" use="optional"/> 
            </extension> 
        </complexContent> 
    </complexType>

[12:21] Mike Edwards: <!-- WireFormat Type --> 
   <element name="wireFormat" type="sca:WireFormatType" abstract="true"/> 
   <complexType name="WireFormatType" abstract="true"> 
      <anyAttribute namespace="##other" processContents="lax"/> 
   </complexType> 

   <!-- OperationSelector Type --> 
   <element name="operationSelector" type="scaperationSelectorType" 
      abstract="true"/> 
   <complexType name="OperationSelectorType" abstract="true"> 
      <anyAttribute namespace="##other" processContents="lax"/> 
   </complexType>

[12:22] Bryan Aupperle: Mike: The WireFormat and OperationSelector can be modified as above but that needs approval from assembly.

[12:22] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Dave - Resolve Bindings 127 with proposal in e-mail linked in chat room

[12:23] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motions passes w/o

[12:23] Bryan Aupperle: AI (Mike): Communicate desired changes to WireFormat and Operation Selector to the Assembly TC

[12:24] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-128: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-128 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jms

[12:24] Bryan Aupperle: Mike reviews proposal in JIRA

[12:25] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Eric - Resolve Bindings 128 with proposal in JIRA

[12:25] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motions passes w/o

[12:25] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-129: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-129 
Problems with the Extension Points in the XSD for binding.jca

[12:25] Bryan Aupperle: Mike reviews proposal in JIRA

[12:26] Bryan Aupperle: Motion: Mike, second Eric - Resolve Bindings 129 with proposal in JIRA

[12:26] Bryan Aupperle: Resolution: Motions passes w/o

[12:27] Bryan Aupperle: Issue Bindings-126: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-126 
binding.ws should REQUIRE support for WS-Policy

[12:27] Bryan Aupperle: Latest email: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings/201004/msg00027.html

[12:28] Bryan Aupperle: Later e-mail: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings/201004/msg00032.html

[12:29] Bryan Aupperle: Mike describes current state of discussions

[12:32] Bryan Aupperle: Eric: Agreement that for a reference support of a WSDL with WS-Policy make sense.  Mike addresses an approach for services but separate wording is probably necessary.  Also need text covering generated WSDL.

[12:33] Bryan Aupperle: Eric: I am also not comfortable with mandating support for specific policy assertions and WS-addressing.

[12:35] Bryan Aupperle: Anish: We should use existing concepts of effective policy vs. something trumping something else.

[12:36] Bryan Aupperle: Eric:  In the end, the deployer will be the role that wants to finally control policy for services.

[12:37] Bryan Aupperle: Ashok: Both the Assembly spec. and the Policy FW say that policy is additive.  We should stay with that.

[12:38] Bryan Aupperle: Simon: Overriding policy defined in a external WSDL for a a reference is quite likely to result in failure.  Services are a bit different.

[12:38] Ashok: Replace "support WS-Policy" with "recognize and process policies expressed in WS-Policy syntax"

[12:39] Bryan Aupperle: Anish, we should never allow ignoring WS-Policy items in a WSDL, it is part of the contract in the same manner as other binding aspects.

[12:40] Bryan Aupperle: Eric: We already have the ability to override a URI, policy seems like another area where overrides may be desirable.

[12:42] Bryan Aupperle: Mike: We cannot ignore policy requirements of a service provider.  Failures are desirable if policy requirements cannot be met.

[12:45] Bryan Aupperle: Mike: Anish or Ashok can you elaborate on effective policy?

[12:45] Bryan Aupperle: Ashok: They are additive

[12:45] Bryan Aupperle: And it is easy to end up with an invalid combination.

[12:46] anish: effective policy: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-ws-policy-attach-20070904/#rEffectivePolicy

[12:47] anish: Definition: A merge consists of serializing each policy as a policy expression, replacing their wspolicy element with a wsp:All element, and placing each as children of a wrapper wspolicy element.

[12:49] Bryan Aupperle: Ashok: Most implementations do not add policy to clients, only use policy required by server.

[12:50] anish i think ashok has lost a few hair trying to fix ws-policy to deal with domain-level policy merging

[12:50] anish but he hit the IBSoft wall 

[12:51] Bryan Aupperle: Dave: SCA may be unique allowing policy being added to references.  Perhaps we should start by saying that only use either WSDL attached policy or SCA attached policy.

[12:51] Bryan Aupperle: Mike: We have to define what happens when both exist, perhaps raise an error.

[12:52] Bryan Aupperle: Dave: That may be a bit draconian but if not then we start down a slippery slope.

[12:52] Bryan Aupperle: Dave: In-line policy in WSDL is not a good idea.

[12:54] Bryan Aupperle: Dave: Allowing in-line WSDL policy to satisfy intents is part of the slippery slope.

[12:56] Bryan Aupperle: Anish: There are some policy assertions in abstract WSDL that we do not want to outlaw, e.g. WS-Addressing.

[13:00] Bryan Aupperle: Anish: Supporting WS-Policy framework without supporting any policy assertions will make it very difficult, if not impossible, to test the support of the WS-Policy framework.  WS-Addressing is a good candidate for an assertion to be required.  WS-I Basic profile already requires support for WS-Addressing.

[13:00] Bryan Aupperle: Eric: Feature creep!

[13:01] Bryan Aupperle: Topic: AOB

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