Re: [sca-bpel] Formatted minutes of 2008-05-15 telcon

[Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>]

This time with the roll.

-Anish
--

Anish Karmarkar wrote:
> Attached.
> Thanks to Martin for scribing.
> Note: these minutes do not contain the roll -- so we can't approve them 
> (yet).
> 
> -Anish
> -- 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hide IRC
> 
> OASIS Logo <http://www.oasis-open.org/>
> 
> 
>   - DRAFT -
> 
> 
>   OASIS SCA-BPEL TC telcon
> 
> 
>     15 MAY 2008
> 
> 
>       Attendees
> 
> Present
>     TBD
> Chair
>     Sanjay Patil
> Scribe
>     Martin Chapman
> Agenda:
>     http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00009.html
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Contents
> 
> <#topics>Topics
>     [1] <#d1e123>  Agenda 
>     [2] <#d1e128>  minutes 
>     [3] <#d1e136>  action items 
>     [4] <#d1e165>  new issues 
>     [5] <#d1e169>  Status of JIRA 
>     [6] <#d1e177>  Issue 20 
>     [7] <#d1e204>  issue 15 
> Table of Resolutions <#resolutions>
> Table of Action Items <#ais>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Action Items
> 
> New:
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Resolutions
> 
>     * 2008-05-15-1 <#d1e200>: Issue 20 resolved by proposal at
>       http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Minutes
> 
> Scribe: Martin Chapman
> 
> <Sanjay>
> Agenda -
> 1. Roll Call
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/sca-bpel/members/roster.php
> 2. Appointment of scribe
> Scribe list attached below
> 3. Agenda bashing
> 4. Approval of may 8, 2008 minutes
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00007.html
> 5. Action items review
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/sca-bpel/members/action_items.php
> a) AI #0021
> Chairs - to follow up with Mary to post the CD docs to OASIS repository
> b) AI #0035 (Due date 5/
> Dieter - Create a proposal for Issue 16 - Ambiguous Service Resolution
> c) AI #0037
> Anish - update the assembly RDDL file, file names and the references in 
> the spec
> d) AI #0039
> Anish - Provide an amendment to Danny's proposal to resolve issue 20.
> 6. New Issues
> NONE
> 7. Status of JIRA
> Update from issues editor
> 8. Issue Discussion
> a) Issue 20 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-20
> SCA-BPEL spec can not require bpel:mustUnderstand to be true
> (proposal in JIRA)
> b) Issue 15 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-15
> TITLE- Define Conformance Targets
> SUBMITTED BY- Martin Chapman
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00014.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00048.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00001.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00021.html
> Review of section 2.1 from CD-01-rev3 at
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html
> c) Issue 18 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-18
> TITLE- Need to rewrite the SCA-BPEL specifications with RFC-2119
> keywords/statements
> SUBMITTED BY- KHANDERAO KAND
> d) Issue 16 http://osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-16
> TITLE- Ambigous Service Resolution
> SUBMITTED BY- Dieter Koenig
> 9. AOB
> <Mike Edwards>
> your line is very noisy Martin
> 
> 
>       Agenda
> 
>  
> no additions. Approved
> 
> 
>       minutes
> 
>  
> Approval of may 8, 2008 minutes
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00007.html
>  
> no comments and no objections to approving
> 
> 
>       action items
> 
>  
> a) AI #0021
> Chairs - to follow up with Mary to post the CD docs to OASIS repository
>  
> Ongoing
>  
> b) AI #0035 (Due date 5/
> Dieter - Create a proposal for Issue 16 - Ambiguous Service Resolution
>  
> extended complietion date to may 29. Ongoing
>  
> c) AI #0037
> Anish - update the assembly RDDL file, file names and the references in 
> the spec
>  
> Need to touch base with Ivana on the BPEL RDDL file
>  
> Done
>  
> d) AI #0039
> Anish - Provide an amendment to Danny's proposal to resolve issue 20.
>  
> Done
> 
> 
>       new issues
> 
>  
> No new issues recieved
> 
> 
>       Status of JIRA
> 
>  
> is up to date with current status.
> Anish:
> need to upload a snapshot to the TC pages
>  
> Mike R will do
> 
> 
>       Issue 20
> 
>  
> Issue 20 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-20
> SCA-BPEL spec can not require bpel:mustUnderstand to be true
> (proposal in JIRA)
> <anish>
> amendment: 
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html
> <Danny>
> Sanjay - can you mark me present, please.
> <Sanjay>
> yes Danny
> Martin:
> does the extension need a name?
> <Danny>
> not accoriding to ws-bpel syntax
> Anish moves to accept proposal in msg00016.html to resolve issue 20. 
> Danny 2nds
>  
> No objcections to unanimous consent, motion passes.
> *Resolution: *Issue 20 resolved by proposal at 
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html
>  
> Issue 20 can be moved to resolved state
> 
> 
>       issue 15
> 
>  
> Issue 15 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-15
> TITLE- Define Conformance Targets
> SUBMITTED BY- Martin Chapman
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00014.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00048.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00001.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00021.html
> Review of section 2.1 from CD-01-rev3 at
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html
> <anish>
> issue 18 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html
> Mike R:
> walk thru of section 2.1 update proposal
> <Danny>
> ". A simple static analysis of the control flow, which does not involve 
> determining the values of any expressions, is used
> to determine which role can send the first message."
>  
> thanks
> Sanjay:
> has been a dicussion on static analysis so may need to raise a separate 
> issue.
> <anish>
> i don't like 'component type generator' and 'component' as the 
> conformance targets
> <anish>
> the targets we should have are specific files or runtime
> <anish>
> i don't know what i can do with a 'component type generator' target
>  
> well we can talk about elements being targets i.e. portions of documents
> <anish>
> sure, but the target is still the composite
> <Danny>
> I disagree. Otherwise we get all kinds of passive syntax
> <anish>
> this is/was done in WS-I, and the syntax was not bad
> Danny:
> need a discussion about static ananlysis and whether its an issue
> Martin:
> Component Type generator is not a traget we should be talking about
> Martin:
> its not something we wish to attach conformance requiremenst to
> Anish:
> hard to see attaching tests to a component type generator. prefer 
> talking about the sca runtime
> Mike E:
> sympathize with not liking the component type generator.
> <anish>
> how about 'the RUNTIME MUST generate the component type that ...'
>  
> there is a notial/virtual data structure being produced and we can talk 
> about production rules without talking about
> generators
> Mike R:
> didnt seem appropriate for an artifact nor a run-time
> <Dieter Koenig>
> how about "a component type referencing this process MUST contain an SCA 
> service ..."?
> <Mike Edwards>
> "the introspected component type MUST...."
> Mike R:
> sca runtime is too late in the process in this case
> Anish:
> suggested sca runtime could do this
> Anish:
> hard to mandate when checks are made or virtual data structure is created
> Mike R:
> does the compontent type generator imply any time in the process
> Anish:
> no but implying targeting a particular part of the run-time which is 
> hard to isolate
> Dieter:
> focus on the artifacts and the rules between them, and not fucuss of 
> runtimes and generators
> Martin C:
> +1 to Dieter
> Sanjay:
> component type generator may be good for ease of writting but may give 
> wrong impression for how to implement
> Sanjay:
> with the virtual artifact it doesnt actually exist, however it shoudl be 
> testable somehow
> Mike E:
> it is still prefectly testable as you can depend on certain values being 
> present. This is valid for any technology
> that does introspection and is not just specific to BPEL
> Mike R:
> something should be claiming to pass a test
> Mike R:
> cant have a non existing artifact to test
> Mike R:
> doesnt imply any point in time the generator must execute
> <anish>
> mikeR, what did you think of my suggestion in the chat?
> Martin C:
> generator is too virtual
> Mike E:
> how is a generator more testable than a virtual file
> Mike R:
> entities at any point in time can claim to be a generator
> Mike E:
> not real enough
> Anish:
> can we substitute runtime for generator
> Mike R:
> would prefer the runtime approach to Mike E and Dieter's approach
> <Dieter Koenig>
> i can write a component type with notepad - what is the runtime in this 
> case?
> Sanjay:
> who do we make happy talking about genererors
>  
> dos?
> <anish>
> dieter, that is a sidefile, i assume, in which case it is a valid target
> <anish>
> any such file has to be merged with things like annotations, extensions
> <anish>
> which would generate a virtual CT
> <anish>
> so, RUNTIME is a target, SCDL is a target, CT side file is a target, 
> BPEL process is a target
>  
> Motions to adopt: 
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html
>  
> Ran out of time so motion dies
>  
> Aob: stragler roll call
> 
> [End of Minutes]
> Formatted on 2008-05-21 at 14:21:40 GMT-7
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by Schreiber, a collection of XSLT stylesheets by Bob 
> Freund modeled after David Booth's scribe
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Title: SCA-BPEL - 2008-05-15

Hide IRC

- DRAFT -

OASIS SCA-BPEL TC telcon

15 MAY 2008

Attendees

Present

Mike Rowley (BEA Systems, Inc.)

Mike Edwards, (IBM)

Dieter Koenig, (IBM)

Simon Moser, (IBM)

Martin Chapman (Oraacle Corporation)

Khanderao Kand, (Oracle Corporation)

Anish Karmarkar, (Oracle Corporation)

Ashok Malhotra, (Oracle Corporation)

Sanjay Patil, (SAP AG*)

Najeeb Andrabi, (TIBCO Software Inc.)

Danny van der Rijn, (TIBCO Software Inc.)

Chair

Sanjay Patil

Scribe

Martin Chapman

Agenda:

http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00009.html

---

Contents

Topics

[1]  Agenda

[2]  minutes

[3]  action items

[4]  new issues

[5]  Status of JIRA

[6]  Issue 20

[7]  issue 15

Table of Resolutions

Table of Action Items

---

Action Items

New:

---

Resolutions

• 2008-05-15-1: Issue 20 resolved by proposal at http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html

---

Minutes

Scribe: Martin Chapman

<Sanjay>

Agenda -
1. Roll Call
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/sca-bpel/members/roster.php
2. Appointment of scribe
Scribe list attached below
3. Agenda bashing
4. Approval of may 8, 2008 minutes
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00007.html
5. Action items review
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/sca-bpel/members/action_items.php
a) AI #0021
Chairs - to follow up with Mary to post the CD docs to OASIS repository
b) AI #0035 (Due date 5/
Dieter - Create a proposal for Issue 16 - Ambiguous Service Resolution
c) AI #0037
Anish - update the assembly RDDL file, file names and the references in the spec
d) AI #0039
Anish - Provide an amendment to Danny's proposal to resolve issue 20.
6. New Issues
NONE
7. Status of JIRA
Update from issues editor
8. Issue Discussion
a) Issue 20 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-20
SCA-BPEL spec can not require bpel:mustUnderstand to be true
(proposal in JIRA)
b) Issue 15 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-15
TITLE- Define Conformance Targets
SUBMITTED BY- Martin Chapman
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00014.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00048.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00001.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00021.html
Review of section 2.1 from CD-01-rev3 at
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html
c) Issue 18 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-18
TITLE- Need to rewrite the SCA-BPEL specifications with RFC-2119
keywords/statements
SUBMITTED BY- KHANDERAO KAND
d) Issue 16 http://osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-16
TITLE- Ambigous Service Resolution
SUBMITTED BY- Dieter Koenig
9. AOB

<Mike Edwards>

your line is very noisy Martin

Agenda

 

no additions. Approved

minutes

 

Approval of may 8, 2008 minutes
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00007.html

 

no comments and no objections to approving

action items

 

a) AI #0021
Chairs - to follow up with Mary to post the CD docs to OASIS repository

 

Ongoing

 

b) AI #0035 (Due date 5/
Dieter - Create a proposal for Issue 16 - Ambiguous Service Resolution

 

extended complietion date to may 29. Ongoing

 

c) AI #0037
Anish - update the assembly RDDL file, file names and the references in the spec

 

Need to touch base with Ivana on the BPEL RDDL file

 

Done

 

d) AI #0039
Anish - Provide an amendment to Danny's proposal to resolve issue 20.

 

Done

new issues

 

No new issues recieved

Status of JIRA

 

is up to date with current status.

Anish:

need to upload a snapshot to the TC pages

 

Mike R will do

Issue 20

 

Issue 20 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-20
SCA-BPEL spec can not require bpel:mustUnderstand to be true
(proposal in JIRA)

<anish>

amendment: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html

<Danny>

Sanjay - can you mark me present, please.

<Sanjay>

yes Danny

Martin:

does the extension need a name?

<Danny>

not accoriding to ws-bpel syntax
Anish moves to accept proposal in msg00016.html to resolve issue 20. Danny 2nds

 

No objcections to unanimous consent, motion passes.

Resolution: Issue 20 resolved by proposal at http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200805/msg00016.html

 

Issue 20 can be moved to resolved state

issue 15

 

Issue 15 http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BPEL-15
TITLE- Define Conformance Targets
SUBMITTED BY- Martin Chapman
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00014.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00048.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00001.html
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00021.html
Review of section 2.1 from CD-01-rev3 at
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html

<anish>

issue 18 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200804/msg00026.html

Mike R:

walk thru of section 2.1 update proposal

<Danny>

". A simple static analysis of the control flow, which does not involve determining the values of any expressions, is used
to determine which role can send the first message."

 

thanks

Sanjay:

has been a dicussion on static analysis so may need to raise a separate issue.

<anish>

i don't like 'component type generator' and 'component' as the conformance targets

<anish>

the targets we should have are specific files or runtime

<anish>

i don't know what i can do with a 'component type generator' target

 

well we can talk about elements being targets i.e. portions of documents

<anish>

sure, but the target is still the composite

<Danny>

I disagree. Otherwise we get all kinds of passive syntax

<anish>

this is/was done in WS-I, and the syntax was not bad

Danny:

need a discussion about static ananlysis and whether its an issue

Martin:

Component Type generator is not a traget we should be talking about

Martin:

its not something we wish to attach conformance requiremenst to

Anish:

hard to see attaching tests to a component type generator. prefer talking about the sca runtime

Mike E:

sympathize with not liking the component type generator.

<anish>

how about 'the RUNTIME MUST generate the component type that ...'

 

there is a notial/virtual data structure being produced and we can talk about production rules without talking about
generators

Mike R:

didnt seem appropriate for an artifact nor a run-time

<Dieter Koenig>

how about "a component type referencing this process MUST contain an SCA service ..."?

<Mike Edwards>

"the introspected component type MUST...."

Mike R:

sca runtime is too late in the process in this case

Anish:

suggested sca runtime could do this

Anish:

hard to mandate when checks are made or virtual data structure is created

Mike R:

does the compontent type generator imply any time in the process

Anish:

no but implying targeting a particular part of the run-time which is hard to isolate

Dieter:

focus on the artifacts and the rules between them, and not fucuss of runtimes and generators

Martin C:

+1 to Dieter

Sanjay:

component type generator may be good for ease of writting but may give wrong impression for how to implement

Sanjay:

with the virtual artifact it doesnt actually exist, however it shoudl be testable somehow

Mike E:

it is still prefectly testable as you can depend on certain values being present. This is valid for any technology
that does introspection and is not just specific to BPEL

Mike R:

something should be claiming to pass a test

Mike R:

cant have a non existing artifact to test

Mike R:

doesnt imply any point in time the generator must execute

<anish>

mikeR, what did you think of my suggestion in the chat?

Martin C:

generator is too virtual

Mike E:

how is a generator more testable than a virtual file

Mike R:

entities at any point in time can claim to be a generator

Mike E:

not real enough

Anish:

can we substitute runtime for generator

Mike R:

would prefer the runtime approach to Mike E and Dieter's approach

<Dieter Koenig>

i can write a component type with notepad - what is the runtime in this case?

Sanjay:

who do we make happy talking about genererors

 

dos?

<anish>

dieter, that is a sidefile, i assume, in which case it is a valid target

<anish>

any such file has to be merged with things like annotations, extensions

<anish>

which would generate a virtual CT

<anish>

so, RUNTIME is a target, SCDL is a target, CT side file is a target, BPEL process is a target

 

Motions to adopt: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bpel/200803/msg00000.html

 

Ran out of time so motion dies

 

Aob: stragler roll call

[End of Minutes]
Formatted on 2008-05-21 at 15:00:03 GMT-7

---

Minutes formatted by Schreiber, a collection of XSLT stylesheets by Bob Freund modeled after David Booth's scribe

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edits: Line 110: MartinC: s/RDDL/BPEL RDDL/

edits: Line 177: anish: s/generetor/generator/

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citation-detection-irc1: Line 66: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 68: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'c) Issue 18 http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 73: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'd) Issue 16 http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 89: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

edit-substitute: command on line 110 succeeded, changed line 108 from 'RDDL' to 'BPEL RDDL'

edit-delete: Line 110 was deleted

citation-detection-irc1: Line 156: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 157: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 158: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 159: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 160: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

citation-detection-irc1: Line 162: Check for possible unrecognized nick 'http'

edit-substitute: command on line 177 succeeded, changed line 175 from 'generetor' to 'generator'

edit-delete: Line 177 was deleted

system: Transformer: SAXON 9.0.0.2

[End of Schreiber diagnostic output]