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Subject: Raw chat log of 2009-01-12 telcon


Mark Combellack: - Roll Call
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/membership.php?wg_abbrev=sca-j
- Appointment of scribe. List attached below
- Agenda bashing
- Approval of minutes from January 9th
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/30616/SCA%20Java%20Minutes%202009-01-09.doc

Issue Status:
Open: 59


1. Review action items:

Action Items that I believe are done:
2009-01-09-02:BryanA to raise a new issue for lack of Conformance 
section and include text from his proposal for JAVA-96

Action Items that I believe are still to be done:
2008-07-15-2: Vladimir to produce a proposal for JAVA-2
2008-10-06-1: Editors to fix all the other remaining ed issues for WD04 
pointed out by Mark, SimonN and Vamsi
2008-10-06-2: Anish - Work with OASIS Staff to get CD01 published - 
blocked by package name appeal
2008-10-20-1: Simon to write new proposal with textual changes for JAVA-76
2008-11-11-3: Simon to provide proposal for JAVA-6
2008-11-11-5: MikeE and Dave to write up a proposal to JAVA-1 covering 
the options decided at the Nov F2F
2008-11-11-7: Mark to propose a delta to Simon's action (2008-11-11-6) 
on JAVA-25 to add support for message correlation on call backs
2008-11-11-8: SimonN to write spec change proposal to resolve JAVA-19 as 
directed at the Nov F2F
2008-11-11-12: Mark to write proposal for JAVA-46 drawing inspiration 
from the chat log of day 2 of the November F2F
2008-11-11-13: Dave to work on proposal for JAVA-60
2008-11-11-21: Mark, Jim and Mike to describe their use cases for JAVA-30
2008-11-11-22: Mark to draw up some wording for Direction 1 (as 
discussed at the November F2F) for JAVA-62
2008-11-11-23: Mark (and others prepared to help) to investigate the 
WorkManager JEE spec and determine its applicability to SCA for JAVA-62
2008-11-11-27: SimonN to raise issue on brain-damaged definition of 
@Service annotation (see comments in Nov F2F raw chat log)
2008-11-11-33: Simon to write up proposal for JAVA-67 (not in previous 
minutes but Simon is sure he has this action item)
2009-01-05-01: Dave to ask Martin to pursue selection of domain name 
before January 31 through dialog with OASIS people
2009-01-05-02: Simon to find use cases for conversational interactions
2009-01-05-03: Simon to illustrate his proposal for Java-95 with use 
cases from action item 2009-01-05-02
2009-01-05-04: Jim to illustrate his proposal for Java-95 with use cases 
from action item 2009-01-05-02
2009-01-09-01: Vamsi to produce proposal for JAVA-117


2. Accepting New Issues

a. JAVA-119: JAA Conformance Section
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-119
Discusion: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00023.html


3. Blocking Issue discussion

a. JAVA-25: Callback Simplification
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-25
Proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00015.html


4. SCA-J Cross specification dependencies (To be complete by Jan 21st)
The Liaison Committee wants a list of the specifications that SCA-J is 
dependent.
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00013.html
Draft response: 
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00020.html


5. Other Open Issues discussion

a. JAVA-99: @property and @reference cannot be final
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-99

b. JAVA-52: RequestContext.getCallbackReference() description inadequate
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-52

c. JAVA-101: element not fully described in Java CAA specification
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-101

d. JAVA-30: "Process" Scope
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-30
proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00006.html

e. JAVA-65: There is no lifecycle defined for SCA Components
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-65
proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200811/msg00095.html

f. JAVA-102: Need to have a Name parameter on the @Service annotation
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-102

g. JAVA-62: Clarify what a Component Implementation can do with threads
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-62


6. Deferred blocking issues (Waiting for resolution of ASSEMBLY-94)

a. JAVA-95: Simplified stateful implementation mechanism to replace 
conversations
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-95
Proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00021.html
Comments from Jim: 
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00098.html


7. AOB


---------------------------------------------------------------
Rotating scribe list:

Peter Walker Sun Microsystems (1)
Roberto Chinnici Sun Microsystems (2)
Peter Peshev SAP AG (2)
Ron Barack SAP AG (3)
Michael Beisiegel IBM (3)
Sanjay Patil SAP AG (3)
Vladimir Savchenko SAP AG (1)
Jim Marino Individual (4)
Vamsavardhana Chillakuru IBM (2)
Pradeep Simha TIBCO Software Inc. (5)
Mike Edwards IBM (5)
Anish Karmarkar Oracle Corporation (6)
Yang Lei (2)
Plamen Pavlov SAP AG (1)
Bryan Aupperle IBM (5)
Martin Chapman Oracle Corporation (5)
Ashok Malhotra Oracle Corporation (5)
Simon Nash Individual (3)
Meeraj Kunnumpurath Individual (2)

anish: Scribe: Anish Karmarkar

anish: Title: Agenda bashing

anish: Agenda approved

anish: Title: Approval of jan 9th 2009 minutes

anish: 
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/30616/SCA%20Java%20Minutes%202009-01-09.doc

anish: Minutes approved

anish: Title: issue status

anish: 59 open issues

anish: Title: Action items

anish: Done --

anish: 2009-01-09-02: BryanA to raise a new issue for lack of 
Conformance section and include text from his proposal for JAVA-96

anish: Dave: don't know what "2009-01-05-01: Dave to ask Martin to 
pursue selection of domain name before January 31 through dialog with 
OASIS people " is

anish: Simon: This is about Java-28. Ashok made a comment that Martin is 
member of TAB and this was to have a dialogue thru OASIS staff

anish: Ashok: isn't this moot now that we will have the domain 
oasisopen.org?

anish: Simon: it isn't completed and need a few weeks

anish: Ashok: this is in the process and why don't we hold off on this

anish: Dave: so should I sit on this for a while

anish: Ashok: i would close it and if it comes up or doesn't work out, 
we can start it again

anish: Mark: i'll mark that AI as closed

anish: s/Title/Topic/g

anish: Topic: New Issue JAVA-119 - JAA Conformance Section

anish: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00023.html

anish: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-119

anish: Bryan explains his issue

anish: Some of the proposal text depends on resolution of issue 60

anish: Motion: m: Bryan s: MikeE to accept new issue 119

anish: Motion approved w/o

anish: Question about Full majority?

anish: Dave: we do have 66.666%

anish: Mark: the motion is approved with the right number of people on 
the call. The new issue is opened

anish: Topic: JAVA-25: Callback Simplification
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-25
Proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00015.html

anish: <Simon on a train dialing with a mobile. May not be able to speak>

anish: Simon not able to speak. Moving on to the next agenda item.

anish: Topic: SCA-J Cross specification dependencies (To be complete by 
Jan 21st)
The Liaison Committee wants a list of the specifications that SCA-J is 
dependent.
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00013.html
Draft response: 
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200901/msg00020.html

anish: Dave: Liaison would like to know which SCA specs our specs 
depends on wrt conformance

anish: Dave explains his email

anish: Dave's proposal:

anish: All of our specs depend on Assembly and Policy, in addition;

Java CAA - nothing additional
Java C&I - requires compliance to CAA
Spring C&I - Does it really depend on CAA?
EJB Binding - nothing additional

anish: MikeE: some of the later changes we've made has dependances in 
Spring on CAA. Some issue resolutions have not been included in the 
Spring spec

anish: Dave: k, so spring C&I does have a dependency on CAA

anish: ... so i could craft a response based on the above and send it to 
the Liaison committee

anish: Simon: what about JEE spec?

anish: Dave: didn't want to touch it

Unknown action: /ping

anish ping

anish: Dave: JEE would dependent on assembly, policy, CAA and EJB binding

anish: Simon: can we include the JEE part in the response as well

anish: Dave: would be happy to

anish: Action: Dave to get back to the liaison committee with the above 
dependency list

anish: Topic: JAVA-25: Callback Simplification
http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-25
Proposal: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00015.html

anish: back to Java 25 as simon is back

Mike Edwards: 
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-j/200812/msg00096.html

anish: Simon: changes start @ 6.7.1

anish: Line 619 (in open office 2.4)

Mike Edwards: The problem I have with doing this now is that it collides 
with the issues regarding Conversational

Mike Edwards: this will change a lot if conversational goes away

anish: Simon: the section on stateful callback is not updated and cannot 
be till issue 95 is resolved

anish: ... so should constrain ourselves to stateless callbacks

anish: ... good comments from Dave

anish: ... will rewrite based on Dave's comments

anish: MikeE: 1st para is confusing

anish: Simon: was a clumsy c-and-p, will fix it

anish: Simon explains OrderService and OrderServiceCallback example

anish: Dave has already sent comments on the examples in his email

anish: Simon: the implementation code example gets a little tricky

anish: Simon: For synchronous case, it is easy. For async case, it gets 
a little tricky wrt dealing with the injected proxy, perhaps persisting 
it somewhere.

anish: Jim: conversation callbacks would make this simple

anish: Simon: yes it would, it leads me to wonder how useful stateless 
callbacks are when things are async

anish: Jim: we never use them

anish: Simon: Q - how useful is async case with stateless callback?

anish: MikeE: do think it is useful

anish: ... we shouldn't complicate the concepts here with complicated 
examples, but this is useful

anish: Simon: let's move on. The client code is straight forward

anish: Jim: when u do getStatus() in queryStatus() could you always 
return a value that says nothing is available?

anish: Simon: the reason for callbacks is to return something when 
something is available

anish: ... ok, we could change the example to return 'unknown status' 
and add a comment saying that something needs to be done for async response

anish: Anish: why would u use callback if you don't expect async at 
least in some cases

anish: Jim: u can do things like multiple updates, we use this

anish: Simon: we could add an example like that. Looking for fairly 
plausible scenario which isn't too complicated.

anish: ... and use Jim's approach of 'status unknown' sync case

anish: Simon: The last para in that section (6.7.1) contains the 
disclaimer regarding correlation

anish: Simon: section 6.7.2 is not changed as it depends on issue 95

anish: ... 6.7.3 is deleted

anish: ... The next change is in 6.7.4

anish: <some issue with line numbers and seeing changes in open office>

anish: Simon: we should continue discussions when we figure out the line 
number issue.

anish: Discussion to continue later

anish: Topic: JAVA-99: @property and @reference cannot be final
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-99

Mark Combellack: Anyone else struggling to hear?

anish: Anish explains the issue

anish: Jim: i think the complier would issue an error

anish: Simon: don't know how the compiler would even know the semantics 
of the annotation

anish: Jim: scratch that, it wouldn't

anish: Simon: would injection even work?

anish: Jim: would work if the field is in the constructor

anish: Anish: the problem is that you would get runtime error and the 
cases where u won't are useful

anish: Jim: no problem with this, but we should be precise

anish: Anish: planning to make it illegal in every case

anish: Anish: the compliant runtime would be required to not run the 
component/code

anish: Simon: would be easy to look at the annotations thru reflection 
and make sure they comply

anish: Jim: would be fine with that

anish: Anish moves to resolve issue 99 by making @Reference and 
@Property annotation illegal on final fields

anish: Simon seconds

anish: Motion approved w/o

anish: Resolution: issue 99 resolved with above proposal

anish: Action: Editors (anish) to include proper wordings for issue 99 
in the spec inline with the resolution

anish: Topic: JAVA-52: RequestContext.getCallbackReference() description 
inadequate
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-52

anish: Anish explains the issue

anish: It is about getCallbackReference() and what should happen when it 
gets called in a non-callback scenario

anish: Simon: do we have a precedence for this wrt null vs. exception

anish: Mark: we have one where it returns null

anish: Simon: then we should be consistent with that

Mark Combellack: CallableReferene.getConversation() does return null if 
no conversation

anish: Mark: service reference has a getCallback() too, we should 
include that

anish: Dave: already included when we accepted the issue

anish: Anish moves to resolve issue 52 by adding text to getCallback() 
and getCallbackReference() methods that say that it'll return null when 
called in the non-callback case

anish: Simon seconds

anish: Motion approved w/o

anish: Resolution: issue 52 resolved with above proposal

anish: Action: Editors (anish) to include appropriate wordings for issue 
52 in the spec inline with the resolution

anish: Topic: JAVA-101: element not fully described in Java CAA 
specification
proposal: http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/JAVA-101

anish: MikeE: section 3.1 of CAA is supposed to have normative 
description of interface.java element, but it doesn't

anish: ... my proposal is to resolve the issue with the text in JIRA

anish: Bryan: the text says: "... MUST be the same interface
class."

Mark Combellack lowered your hand

anish: ... whereas assembly states that it should be compatible

anish: MikeE: that was intentional

anish: Motion: m:MikeE s:DaveB resolve issue 101 with proposal in JIRA

anish: motion approved w/o

anish: Resolution: issue 101 is resolved with proposal in JIRA

anish: Meeting adjourned


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