Re: [search-ws] recordPacking (Reprise)

["Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress" <rden@loc.gov>]

If we allow the client to say "unpacked" we also need to allow it to say 
"packed", don't we?

Because we're going to want the server to be able to designate the form that 
it thinks will be most used as the default, so that if is designates 
json/unpacked as the default then the client doesn't have to say "unpacked". 
In that case there needs to be a way  for the client to ask for the packed 
version.

Could we change "packed" and "unpacked" to "loose" and "strict"?

So if the client requests "loose" this means that the server is at liberty 
to supply a variation of the schema; if "strict" is requested then the 
server should suppy the schema according to its definition.

--Ray


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hammond, Tony" <t.hammond@nature.com>
To: "Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress" <rden@loc.gov>; "OASIS SWS TC" 
<search-ws@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [search-ws] recordPacking (Reprise)


>
> Just to pick up one thing here:
>
>> additional parameter value, "unpacked", so that if you specify json as 
>> the
>> mime type, and use the default response type, then you can also say
>
> I am not just talking about JSON. I am talking about *all* the response
> types we are considering: JSON, RSS, ATOM.
>
> I remain surprised that such a little detail is causing so much problem.
>
> I am suggesting that there is a standard response per media type which
> corresponds as closely as possible to the canonical SRU/XML response. That
> seems to me to be a good thing. Certainly helps users understand the
> relationship of the SRU response mapping across different formats.
>
> I am suggesting further that clients might be given a helping hand by
> preparing the data so its ready for them on the plate. The terminology 
> seems
> to bear this out. Records are packed and so can be unpacked (if the client
> asks the server to do so). I don't think this is quite as exceptional as
> this thread is suggesting. The data is still there - it's not run away -
> it's just server unpacked for the client (at client's wish). The data also
> doesn't go just anywhere - it just filters up through the packing to the
> topmost item container.
>
> I can see value in standard SRU responses. I can see value in allowing a
> processing hint for the client to request of the server. I can see value 
> in
> applying consistent terminology.
>
> I don't see why this is such a big deal. It's the same schema. It's 
> standard
> as per the draft. It attends to client needs while conforming to standard
> practices. If we define the OpenSearch responses to be unpacked only then 
> we
> lose the connexion with the standard response. I don't see the point in
> doing that.
>
> Tony
>
>
> On 31/3/10 16:16, "Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress" <rden@loc.gov> 
> wrote:
>
>> If the rule is that for a given mime type there is a default response 
>> type,
>> this seems to me to be a reasonable approach and a basis to reach an
>> agreement on all of this.
>>
>> What seems to be complicating this is the suggestion that there be an
>> additional parameter value, "unpacked", so that if you specify json as 
>> the
>> mime type, and use the default response type, then you can also say
>> "unpacked" to get a variation of this response type.   I think this is an
>> un-necessary complication and that there should be a separate response 
>> type.
>> If you plan to use the unpacked variation most (or all) of the time, make
>> that your default, and then define another response type to cover the
>> non-unpacked variation.
>>
>> --Ray
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "LeVan,Ralph" <levan@oclc.org>
>> To: "Hammond, Tony" <t.hammond@nature.com>; "Ray Denenberg, Library of
>> Congress" <rden@loc.gov>; "OASIS SWS TC" <search-ws@lists.oasis-open.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: [search-ws] recordPacking (Reprise)
>>
>>
>> I think we're at an impasse here.
>>
>> I think that what Tony wants to do would not be implemented in the way
>> he wants by anyone else.  I'd use the responseSchema parameter.  Having
>> said that, he can use whatever non-standard values he wants for the
>> recordPacking parameter and apply whatever semantics he wants.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Hammond, Tony [mailto:t.hammond@nature.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:44 AM
>>> To: LeVan,Ralph; Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress; OASIS SWS TC
>>> Subject: Re: [search-ws] recordPacking (Reprise)
>>>
>>> Hi Ralph:
>>>
>>>> Why not just do this for all your JSON responses and drop the
>> unpacked
>>>> idea entirely?  We're not dictating what you stick in your JSON.
>>>
>>> I really do believe that the extension formats ought to be able to
>> mirror
>>> the standard (canonical) response as far as possible. That is, there
>> should
>>> be a version of record in each media type that corresponds reasonably
>>> closely to the SRU/XML.
>>>
>>> Having said that, for *practical purposes alone* there could be a more
>>> streamlined delivery which unpacks the data for the client
>> application. This
>>> does not seem to be an unreasonable approach. The OpenSearch formats
>> are
>>> by
>>> nature looser organizations and admit of novel handling.
>>>
>>> Because this is a new concept (record data packing) does not mean that
>> it is
>>> without merit. We find it to be very useful.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31/3/10 15:04, "LeVan,Ralph" <levan@oclc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Hammond, Tony [mailto:t.hammond@nature.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:51 AM
>>>>> To: LeVan,Ralph; Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress; OASIS SWS TC
>>>>> Subject: Re: [search-ws] recordPacking (Reprise)
>>>>>
>>>>> OK - maybe there's a way out of this impasse.
>>>>>
>>>>> The way we have been using the "unpacked" format is to float the
>>>> properties
>>>>> to the toplevel enclosing item which is where any OpenSearch type
>>>> format
>>>>> would reasonably expect to find them. (I used the unpacked form to
>>>> maintain
>>>>> fidelity with the XML schema.)
>>>>
>>>> Why not just do this for all your JSON responses and drop the
>> unpacked
>>>> idea entirely?  We're not dictating what you stick in your JSON.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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