RE: 3 different assertions diagrams

["Simon Y. Blackwell" <sblackwell@psoom.com>]

> I'm not sure what you are really asking for.  In the proposal 
> that I made
> for toppish assertions, I provided complete schemas and 
> examples.

Then I completely missed something. All I saw were the pictures in the
latest postings. I dug back through things and found the original proposal
which, when coupled with the diagrams, provides all I am looking for.

Sorry for the confusion.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Orchard, David [mailto:dorchard@jamcracker.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:26 PM
> To: Simon Y. Blackwell; security-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: 3 different assertions diagrams
> 
> 
> Simon,
> 
> I'm not sure what you are really asking for.  In the proposal 
> that I made
> for toppish assertions, I provided complete schemas and 
> examples.  This
> covers 95% of the 2 diagrams I showed.  The top bits (how to 
> structure any
> recursion) is the only thing without a sample.  Phil has 
> produced a number
> of examples in his examples doc, and I even went as far as to create a
> diagram for his proposal.  Eve even created another diagram showing a
> different representation.
> 
> I really think that at this point submitters have done a good job of
> providing material to illustrate their submissions, and even 
> tried to help
> clarify other people's submissions.
> 
> If you want more work to be done by submitters, please 
> describe exactly and
> explicitly what pieces you would like.  I'm personally not in 
> favour of
> doing much more editorial work until some decisions are made.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Simon Y. Blackwell [mailto:sblackwell@psoom.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:16 AM
> > To: 'Eve L. Maler'; security-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: 3 different assertions diagrams
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eve L. Maler [mailto:eve.maler@east.sun.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:20 AM
> > > To: security-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: 3 different assertions diagrams
> > > 
> >  ... major section deleted ...
> > > 
> > > >2) It is not clear from the diagram (which is one reason I 
> > don't find
> > > >diagrams useful) how the syntax is implemented.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, but I find diagrams immensely useful for ensuring that 
> > > we all are 
> > > talking in the same language, and they're particularly useful 
> > > in a group 
> > > where most of the expertise is on the security side, not the 
> > > XML side.  The 
> > > notation I've used isn't complete for implementing a schema, 
> > > but given our 
> > > discovery of mismatched concepts in last Tuesday's meeting, I 
> > > don't think 
> > > we're ready for a real schema yet.  We have to ensure that 
> > > our rough design 
> > > incorporates all the "things" it needs and that we have 
> > > agreed on common 
> > > names for the different "things."  Then we can agree on a 
> > > configuration for 
> > > them, and only then can we start writing a schema that won't 
> > > have to be 
> > > rewritten a bunch of times...  I anticipate that we might be 
> > > able to get to 
> > > the "configuration" point by the end of the F2F, which would 
> > > be a huge 
> > > accomplishment.
> > 
> > I agree with both points. As such, I would find it VERY 
> > useful to have at
> > least some snippets of syntax associated with diagrams. In 
> > general, the
> > diagram creator is probably the person with the best mental 
> > model to create
> > these snippets. Maybe I'm a cripple, but I find it a real 
> > mental exercise to
> > grasp the model and then create for myself what I think the 
> > syntax would
> > look like, which then allows be to re-confirm the model, i.e. 
> > if I come up
> > with a really strange syntax, I assume I have failed to 
> understand the
> > model. I also find snippets of syntax useful for determining 
> > if everything
> > needed is captured. The same goes for DTDs BTW, they are much more
> > approachable if provided with an example of actual use.
> > 
>