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Subject: RE: [soa-blueprints] Primer
at first glance, yes, but needs further consideration.
At 10:49 AM 11/29/2005, marchadr@wellsfargo.com wrote:
>Blackberry typo:
>
>If a process can trigger other processes it seems in an abstract sense
>the same as a long running process.
>
>Since a long running process is essentially short processes
>completing triggering the next process to run on a long term entity.
>
>Does this make a bit more sense?
>
>- Dan
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:15 AM
>To: Marchant, Dan R.; steve.g.jones@capgemini.com;
>jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in; soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: Re: [soa-blueprints] Primer
>
>
>Not sure what meant by
>
>If processes can trigger other processes that seems at and abstract
>since the same as what a long running process is doing.
>
>but generally +1
>
>Ken
>
>At 09:25 AM 11/29/2005, marchadr@wellsfargo.com wrote:
>
> >It seems you guys are pretty much in a greement. To sum up:
> >
> >1. Long running process in reality are short processes that are
> >executed at different intervals
> >2. Processes can trigger other processes to happen
> >
> >If processes can trigger other processes that seems at and abstract
> >since the same as what a long running process is doing. What is
> >stateful on the long running process is the entity which is acted
> >upon not necessarily the process itself.
> >
> >Agree?
> >
> >- dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
> >To: Jones, Steve G <steve.g.jones@capgemini.com>; Marchant, Dan R.
> ><marchadr@imc.wellsfargo.com>; jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in
> ><jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in>; soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> ><soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org>
> >Sent: Tue Nov 29 07:31:34 2005
> >Subject: RE: [soa-blueprints] Primer
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >Good luck on the head cold :-)
> >
> >The key is modularity. You can't reuse pieces if one piece is the
> >entire process. You can't effectively modify your process if every
> >change requires a rewrite of your stovepipe software.
> >
> >This gets back to the question of what we mean by blueprint and what
> >we are writing it/them for. Do we write a detailed POS
> >blueprint? How reusable is that for someone not interested in
> >POS? Can we lay out a few generic blueprints for things like
> >long-running processes with structure that says, "Your company
> >specific piece fits here."?
> >
> >So I think we mostly agree.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >At 04:48 AM 11/29/2005, Jones, Steve G wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
> > > > Sent: 23 November 2005 15:40
> > > > To: marchadr@wellsfargo.com; jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in; soa-
> > > > blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-blueprints] Primer
> > > >
> > >
> > > > OK, now we're getting to some meaty issues :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > > It would seem that a useful pattern would be a long-running business
> > > > process, where the "business" could as likely be technical as
> > > > commercial. What are the requirements of such a process? What
> > > > assumptions do we make about the process? What are the notional
> > > > pieces of a solution? How do these pieces notionally work
> > > > together? Where are there alternatives? Finally, what combination
> > > > of completed standards, specifications within standards committees,
> > > > and private specifications will likely enable such a blueprint?
> > >[Jones, Steve G]
> > >
> > >
> > >Depending on what you mean here by process I'll either massively agree or
> > >throw my hands up in despair :)
> > >
> > >Unfortunately I'm in Q4 Crunch at the moment so time is stretched, but on
> > >the Soalogic (Google aware in 3 days Dan!) business I'm looking to define
> > >(help would be great) the hierarchy of order to cash processes. Most IT
> > >efforts at the business level that I've seen fail, and which have been the
> > >hardest to clean up, is when IT tries to map an end to end process in its
> > >entirety. This fails for many reasons
> > >1) The process is too large and unmanageable
> > >2) It's the first time the business has seen its process codified, they'll
> > >want to change it
> > >3) Different parts of the organisation want to change the process in
> > >different ways
> > >
> > >This is why structure is (IMO) 100% required to have a successful and
> > >effective SOA. Taking the loan decisioning example....
> > >
> > >This is long running from the CUSTOMERS perspective but for several
> > >departments it's a short-lived process, and one which they want
> to optimise
> > >(e.g. credit check and scoring) on a regular basis. Thus there is a
> > >high-level process for tracking progression (long lived), within
> which each
> > >step is probably in itself a process, some long lived
> (confirmation of paper
> > >work), but mostly short-lived. This is where service really
> comes into its
> > >own as it provides the boundaries for both the high-level
> process (normally
> > >fairly static) and the lower level processes (often required to
> be dynamic)
> > >this differing rates of change in different parts of the organisation is a
> > >massive challenge if you view this as a single process.
> > >
> > >Each process step should be a service invocation therefore that
> has its own
> > >associated control and rate of change, which has a clear boundary from the
> > >main process, which is itself just a service offered to the
> customer. There
> > >is an interesting challenge here on how interactive processes are exposed
> > >and managed from a service, does the process "request"
> interaction with the
> > >user, or does it have its own contained user interface?
> > >
> > >I agree with the principle of taking a "thread" through an
> organisation, but
> > >I'd argue we should treat it more as a series of service
> invocations than a
> > >CICS transaction.
> > >
> > >
> > >The example below from Dan is a great one, in theory you could
> view the POS
> > >transaction as being a process that includes stock-reordering, warehouse
> > >management, back to manufacturing, back to the supplier etc etc. But its
> > >not, it's a process that has an effect that could result in
> other processes
> > >being triggered. Equally strategic budgeting effects everything in the
> > >business, but its an "information in", "information out"
> high-level command
> > >process.
> > >
> > >In terms of standards WS-Contract (pre,post,invariant) would be a welcome
> > >addition!
> > >
> > >Steve (with a massive head cold)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Note, part of the output of this thought process could be feedback to
> > > > existing committees on what is needed from their specs or how the
> > > > process needs to be curtailed to fit the current and evolving
> standards.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > >
> > > > At 10:24 AM 11/23/2005, marchadr@wellsfargo.com wrote:
> > > > >Jinu these are good points.
> > > > >
> > > > >Something I would say to this would be that in most implementations
> > > > >of SOA there are basic structures that could be followed with the
> > > > >variation being the actual business logic.
> > > > >
> > > > >Even within a certain space there are multiple blueprint needs.
> > > > >
> > > > >For instance,
> > > > >
> > > > >- Fulfilling a loan may be a long running process that might take
> > > > >into account a workflow with certain security requirements etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >- While making a wires transfer would have to be highly available
> > > > >and have routing based on fraud and security rules without the need
> > > > >of long running process
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >To apply them to some of the cases within the soalogic approach you
> > > > >could see the following:
> > > > >1. Based on the process of developing a product within soalogic they
> > > > >need a managed long running process. This pattern without the
> > > > >specific business logic could be applied to the loan case. Or could
> > > > >even be applied to strategic budget planning, etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >2. The retail store is using a pos process that needs to be secure
> > > > >and have fraud detection for purchases made by the customer this
> > > > >could be applied without the specific business logic to a
> wire transfer
> > > > case.
> > > > >
> > > > >The actual blueprints could be extracted for 1 that state:
> > > > >- WS-BPEL - manage the long running process
> > > > >- Transport types that could apply (HTTP/HTTPS/MQ)
> > > > >- WS-Security - for managing who is able to update from a client
> > > > >auth perspective
> > > > >- WS-Coordination - to coordinate with different SORs
> > > > >- WS-Notification - to alert either an operation or customer service
> > > > >agent of an issue within the process through an intermediary service
> > > > >- WS-Profile - for indentify the service
> > > > >- WS-CAF - to provide context around who the requestor is
> > > > >- Fault Management - how and what type of responses would happen,
> > > > >sending an WSN event?
> > > > >- XACML - for determining the rights of the user invoking the service
> > > > >- etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >So what you end up doing is creating a stack of patterns that could
> > > > >be applied to a problem area that involves long running operations
> > > > >or short fast operations, etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >Of course the specific technology may not be decided upon within the
> > > > >blueprint but the concepts within WS-BPEL will be abstracted with an
> > > > >example implementation of how WS-BPEL fulfills the specific request.
> > > > >Essentially think of the types of services you have ever created and
> > > > >think about a lot of the common problems you had to solve along the
> > > > >way to get specific business logic to be invoked within a service
> > > > >context. There are a lot of problems that are common across
> > > > >implementations such as security, event management, auditing, even
> > > > >in some cases accounting to chargeback for a service invocation to a
> > > > >specific customer or internal client. Some of these could be in a
> > > > >ESB or some could reside with the service and it may be worthwhile
> > > > >to come up with a sample deployment for each blueprint that may
> > > > >determine the type of system needs associated with the blueprint.
> > > > >
> > > > >I'll try and come up with an example at the end of the week or next
> > > > >week so you don't think I am crazy :)
> > > > >
> > > > >- Dan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in [mailto:jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in]
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:58 PM
> > > > >To: soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > >Subject: RE: [soa-blueprints] Primer
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi Folks
> > > > >I am just thinking aloud here. I feel that while a blueprint
> > does give a
> > > > >kind of basic map while moving into uncharted territory, it
> > still has the
> > > > >following limitations
> > > > >
> > > > >- Blueprints as discussed are limited to a category of
> > contexts. Going by
> > > > >the house analogy the blueprint i need for the house will be
> > dependent on
> > > > >who I am and where I want to build the house. If I am the President of
> > > > the
> > > > >United States, then I cannot build the house using the same blueprint
> > > > that
> > > > >you and me would use, Similarly if I would use different blueprints to
> > > > >build my house in the Sahara Dessert and my house in
> Antarctica. What I
> > > > am
> > > > >trying to say is that the Blueprint might applicable for a
> > type of system
> > > > >and may not be useable for all software systems wanting to go the SOA
> > > > way.
> > > > >The SOA blueprint for the Financial Services Systems used by
> Banks would
> > > > be
> > > > >different from that used by Corporates for their Inventory Management
> > > > >System.
> > > > >
> > > > >- Trying to make a generalized blueprint will lead to such a
> high level
> > > > of
> > > > >abstraction that the blueprint itself might not be of much use. Going
> > > > back
> > > > >to the house analogy trying to make a generalized blueprint
> > might lead to
> > > > >the blueprint only containing guidelines like, there should be a
> > > > >foundation, there should be a ceiling, there should be windows etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >- What I feel is that we should have SOA blueprints based on software
> > > > >segments such BFSI segment, ERP segment, Services like Utilities etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >What do you say ??
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards
> > > > >Jinu Joseph
> > > > >Polaris Software Lab Ltd
> > > > >e-mail: jinu.joseph@polaris.co.in
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <marchadr@wellsf
> > > > >
> > > > > argo.com> To:
> > > > > <klaskey@mitre.org>
> > > > > cc:
> > > > > <soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org>, (bcc: jinu.joseph/Polaris)
> > > > > 23-11-05 03:53 Subject: RE:
> > > > > [soa-blueprints] Primer
> > > > > AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >See comments below. Good feedback Ken.
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:07 PM
> > > > > To: Marchant, Dan R.
> > > > > Cc: soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-blueprints] Primer
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:50 AM 11/22/2005, marchadr@wellsfargo.com wrote:
> > > > > Ken these are questions that I am sure with be concretely
> > > > > established by this tc. Here is my take (keep
> in mind I am
> > > > on a
> > > > > blackberry so it might be more terse than normal).
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. A blueprint in my mind is to establish a
> structure to an
> > > > > other wise disorganized approach to developing
> software. I
> > > > have
> > > > > typically called blueprints a reference
> > architecture (not to
> > > > be
> > > > > confused w/reference model).
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Think of the scenario of buying building
> blueprints from
> > > > a
> > > > > house designer and than having though
> blueprints tweaked by
> > > > a
> > > > > local architect of the house. Maybe for your requirements
> > > > you
> > > > > need the kitchen closer to the family room or a
> > water closet
> > > > > turned into a walk in closet. Whatever the
> > changes the basic
> > > > > structure is defined for what you need to accomplish
> > > > building a
> > > > > house with N number of rooms that each have a function.
> > > > >
> > > > > You might find this analogy interesting:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Go back to our house analogy. The RM captures
> concepts related
> > > > to
> > > > > > what makes up a house, e.g. room, window, door. It
> > might include
> > > > > > the concepts of food preparation area and personal
> hygiene area
> > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > > the relationship that there should be physical separation
> > > > between
> > > > > > the two. Note that this provides a very North
> American/western
> > > > > > Europe reference and not necessarily one that
> covers a tent. So
> > > > a
> > > > > > given RM already provides a perspective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given RM concepts, various RAs show how these concepts can be
> > > > > > arranged in a useful pattern. So RA examples would be
> > (sorry for
> > > > > > the American terms) a colonial, a split-level, a
> rambler, etc.
> > > > You
> > > > > > can play with the pattern but one can say that any
> > given pattern
> > > > > > serves a particular set of purposes (e.g. a rambler is on one
> > > > level
> > > > >
> > > > > > for those who want/need to avoid stairs).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An architecture is then a specific plan to build a
> house or set
> > > > of
> > > > > > houses. There can still be some variations but you don't do
> > > > things
> > > > > > like moving fireplaces or structural walls, else
> you have a new
> > > > > > architecture.
> > > > > [Marchant, Dan R.] Sounds a lot like the movie
> "Kitchen Stories"
> > > > > about the period of time where sweden was conducting studies on
> > > > the
> > > > > usability of a kitchen to identify patterns of usage.
> > In some ways
> > > > > the development of a blueprint is similar in nature to
> > the kitchen
> > > > > studies in the 50s.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is a rambler a ranch style house? I agree with the structural
> > > > > statement creating a bit of constraints that take care of the
> > > > > reduntant nature of developing an SOA. Everyone in the
> > US probably
> > > > > has a water closet (bathroom) in the master bedroom a
> > pattern that
> > > > is
> > > > > identified based on the experience of the architects in finding
> > > > the
> > > > > needs of the consumer of the house. Likewise the blueprints can
> > > > > evolve by building on the reference model.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. To establish direction or rudder the ship. You need to
> > > > > establish the pie in the sky and a blueprint
> can help get a
> > > > > handle on that pie.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have a ship without a rudder, you are likely
> beyond being
> > > > > saved by a blueprint :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. There is a type of tracability that can be
> accomplished
> > > > > through following a blueprint. Also it may be
> important to
> > > > use
> > > > > a third-party blueprint to establish a motive
> for changing
> > > > the
> > > > > way a business does things, not sure if this
> applicable for
> > > > > everyone but there is definely value in having
> something to
> > > > > refer too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good points. Now can someone craft those into a
> paragraph or two
> > > > > that any of us can present to a client and they would feel they
> > > > know
> > > > > something they didn't know before?
> > > > > [Marchant, Dan R.] Wiki ?
> > > > >
> > > > > My take is this on the blueprint roadmap so to speak.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Establish a couple different scenarios where services
> > > > would
> > > > > help and how the service would be structured within that
> > > > > context and including supporting services.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Take the scenarios and generalize them into
> > patterns with
> > > > > some technology choices as and example of implementing
> > > > pattern.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Establish an overview of how all the
> supporting services
> > > > > could be structure to support the various patterns.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would essentially turn into a type of framework, a
> > > > service
> > > > > could follow and establish the need for
> supporting services
> > > > in
> > > > > a formal way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Step 2 after you define a blueprint is to lay out how you would
> > > > > create one. Your roadmap looks like a good initial
> > approach, both
> > > > > for motivating a blueprint and showing how one blueprint
> > > > > can/should/might support more than one scenario.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could see it on the same lines of developing anything
> > > > spring
> > > > > or a portal. You have a set of facilities that are
> > > > applicable
> > > > > for certain scenarios that than could be implemented of
> > > > > configured appropriately.
> > > > >
> > > > > The great unknown being what business logic is
> > performed but
> > > > > most of it could be generalized into some type
> of pattern.
> > > > For
> > > > > example, transaction based, inquiry based,
> aggregation, or
> > > > even
> > > > > everyone's favorite semantic service.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thoughts from the group?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
> > > > > To: Marchant, Dan R. <marchadr@imc.wellsfargo.com>
> > > > > CC: soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > <soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > > > Sent: Mon Nov 21 22:42:48 2005
> > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-blueprints] Primer
> > > > >
> > > > > I have not been following the email carefully enough, so
> > > > > forgive me if this has already been established but
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Exactly what is a blueprint?
> > > > > 2. What purpose does it serve?
> > > > > 3. Why should I think one will be generally applicable?
> > > > > 4. Why do I care?
> > > > >
> > > > > Do we expect that a blueprint will be a sort of turnkey
> > > > > formula? How do we determine the limits of applicability
> > > > for a
> > > > > given blueprint? Are there underlying
> assumptions that all
> > > > > blueprints have in common, or is each blueprint
> > > > fundamentally
> > > > > different (a very possible construction), or are there
> > > > > fundamental groupings with multiple
> non-redundant examples
> > > > in
> > > > > each group?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think agreeing on a clear strawman definition
> > of blueprint
> > > > is
> > > > > essential. It can be modified as we learn more
> but we need
> > > > a
> > > > > clear starting point.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 21, 2005, at 9:12 PM, <marchadr@wellsfargo.com>
> > > > > <marchadr@wellsfargo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One question to pose to the group is maybe the case study
> > > > > actually becomes a type of primer for the blueprints once
> > > > the
> > > > > blueprints are defined.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Ken Laskey
> > > > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
> > > > > 7515 Colshire Drive fax:
> > > > > 703-983-1379
> > > > > McLean VA 22102-7508
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > > --------
> > > > >
> > > > > / Ken Laskey
> > > > > \
> > > > > | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
> > > > > | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-
> > > > 1379
> > > > > |
> > > > > \ McLean VA 22102-7508
> > > > > /
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> > >retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any
> > >part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify
> > >the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message.
> >
> >--
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > / Ken
> >Laskey \
> > | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
> > | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
> > \ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> >
>
>--
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> / Ken
>Laskey \
> | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
> | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
> \ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ Ken
Laskey \
| MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
| 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
\ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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