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Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] SOA-RA(F) reorganization
And DON't limit SOA to intra-enterprise solutions. Our work is primarily and up to 80% in the territory crossing enterprise boundaries. Note please that enterprise largely means business, but is not limited to business. Cheers, Rex At 11:37 AM -0500 4/13/09, Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote: >Michael, Ken: > >There is a major missing point in this >discussion. Michael is always talking about >transactional/programmed activities of the >organization. Additionally, SOA works for >unprogrammed/authoring/design and >development/research activities; witness Google, >Yahoo, and other search engines. I submit that >the purpose of these nascent SOA concierge >services/repositories is to dynamically link >(perform Choreography) functions--though the >choreography is performed by a person, rather >than through a set of business rules (rules that >include knowledge rules, event rules, and value >rules). I discussed this concept in a paper I >published in the Journal of Enterprise >Architecture in 2006/2007. Still much of the >most value laden work is performed by >unprogrammed activities (that's what e-mail, >word processing, etc. is all about). > >Please don't limit SOA to transactions only. > >Bob > > >From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 12:19 PM >To: Ken Laskey >Cc: Rex Brooks; James Odell; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] SOA-RA(F) reorganization > >Ken, > >if two organisations decide exchange messages, >i.e. interact, there is a common/shared reason >for this. Such reason IS the orchestration >entity, it may be deployed anywhere. Plus, as I >mentioned, orchestration may be very dynamic >based on required business logic and service >descriptions. > >Nonetheless, I agree with you that combination >of orchestration and choreography is better than >they taken separately; it is better if each part >minds its own business, i.e. orchestration >defines order of functionality invocation and >choreography - dynamically assigned message >exchange and end-points. > >- Michael > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Laskey" >To: "Mike Poulin" >Cc: "Rex Brooks" , "James Odell" , "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org" >Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] SOA-RA(F) reorganization >Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:49:24 -0400 > >Michael, > >It's been a while since I looked at the WS-CDL >draft so I can't comment on specifics. However, >I think the problem is not in choreography, per >se, but in the way you see WS-CDL implementing >it. > >In my mind, I can set up a choreography for an >emergency scenario that has a series of >agreements on how one should respond to a >understandable piece of information, and I can >see a very flexible response as the situation >unfolds. > >Part of the problem with orchestration is it >requires *all* participants to work under a >single orchestration engine. This is fine under >the notional "enterprise" but what about peer >resources that can exchange messages but are >otherwise independent? > >What happens when a variation of the scenario is >not covered by the specifics of pre-programmed >orchestration logic? > >I am not arguing for one over the other but I >see the combination as being more powerful than >either alone. However, this requires SO >composition rather than a traditional >integration mindset. > >Ken > > >On Apr 13, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Mike Poulin wrote: > >>Unfortunately, Ken, this is the principle point >>because Choreography constantly screws SO model. >Choreography is classical application >integration centric model where each change in >the integration requires change in each >participant of this integration, code >modification, re-compilation and re-deployment. >This relates as to the change in the invocation >order as to the change in the participants of >particular Choreography. >The WS-CDL standard under W3C makes the life >even worth - it defines so-called Global >Contract, which freezes all participants. If you >need to modify any participant due to new >business requirements, you have to re-construct >the Global Contract and affect all (innocent) >participants. >The Š standard is so bad that Mr. Ashley >McNeile with his university colleagues tried to >construct a mathematical model which >externalises choreography scenario from the >participants and build it around centralized >dispatcher (very similar to Orchestration). >Orchestration is real antipode to Choreography. >As of "Dave Ellis will tell you related to >emergency response, where the choreography >pattern is vital because you do not know in >advance the location and extent of the emergency >and thus do not know the resources you will need >to orchestrate", I can say that you do not know >where your resources (participants) for >choreography will be as well. Emergency is NOT >the argument. If you construct a set of >choreographies they are solid, monolithic and >incapable to be quickly changed in the case of >emergency. You have to pre-build all >choreographies up-front wasting resources >(because you do not know the location, right?) >Orchestration, in the contrast , is absolutely >dynamic, if you approach it with a >service-oriented mind. As IBM Dynamic Process >Edition has proved, Orchestration does not need >to know Who and How/Where performs the >orchestrated functions. It needs only to know >What functions are and Why/Which order of >invocation has to be applied. Whatever service >meets requirements to the business functionality >declared by the Orchestration, it may be used. >It also may be reused in absolutely different >Orchestration at the same time (due to the match >of offered business functionality) because the >service does not know where it participates in. >Choreography, as it is defined in >the WS-CDL standard under W3C, is an >application-oriented, not service-oriented >mechanism. >If you need more information on this topic, >please, look at 'Does SOA need a choreography or >it can dance by itself?' >(<http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/so-enterprise-blog/does-soa-need-a-choreography-or-it-can-dance-by-itself-27775>http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/so-enterprise-blog/does-soa-need-a-choreography-or-it-can-dance-by-itself-27775). > >- Micahel > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Laskey" >To: "Mike Poulin" >Cc: "Rex Brooks" , "James Odell" , >"<mailto:soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org" >Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] SOA-RA(F) reorganization >Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:44:01 -0400 > >Michael, > >There are problem, such as Dave Ellis will tell >you related to emergency response, where the >choreography pattern is vital because you do not >know in advance the location and extent of the >emergency and thus do not know the resources you >will need to orchestrate. > >I also don't see the need to change the service >with a change in the choreography. I expect the >choreographies are externally maintained >patterns. > >Ken > >On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:11 PM, Mike Poulin wrote: > >>I am in favour of Orchestration for SOA 10 >>times more than for Choreography because the >>latter requires services modification for each >>new choreography it participates in and this >>decreases SOA flexibility in adopting business >>changes. Everything Rex said about events and >>policies is applicable to Orchestration as well >>but Orchestration is much cleaner from SO >>perspectives and much more dynamic. In Yahoo! >>SOA User group, we have discussed this topic a >>few times and always concluded the advantage of >>Orchestration over Choreography for >>service-oriented environment. >> >>- Michael >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Rex Brooks" >>To: "James >>Odell" , <mailto:soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] SOA-RA(F) reorganization >>Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:47:14 -0700 >> >> >>If we had spent more time on Choreography, where events trigger >>policy-based rules for transactions and/or communications, it would >>be somewhat easier to pull together a stand alone Policy >>subsection. Of course, Orchestration also employs policy-based >>rules, but resorting to a Conroller Application removes the >>requirement for either human intervention based on judgment >>required by rules and assessing state, or some heuristic algorithm. >> >>I'd still just add the standalone policy subsection rather than >>eliminating the Policies and Contracts which I think we need for >>more reasons than just continuity from the RM. >> >>Cheers, >>Rex >> >>At 7:03 PM -0400 4/11/09, James Odell wrote: >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> Hmmm. While the two "the enforcement of the two is fairly >>> closely aligned" -- contracts are not necessary for Policies, >>> only the other way around. Policies, IMO should stand alone on >>> their own. The CEP folks argue that policies and events are >>> "fairly closely aligned". I can name a half dozen other areas >>> that could say the same. The bottom line is that: Policy is a >>> concept that may be necessary, but not sufficient for other >>> areas. Therefore, I strongly support its own sub-section. >>> >>> -Jim >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/11/09 6:11 PM, "Francis McCabe" indited: >>> >>> Hi Jim >>> Thank you for taking a look. >>> As far as policies go, we have havered a little (to use a >>> Scottish-ism) on how to organize it. In the RM work we closely >>> identified the two -- with the distinction being that contracts >>> are agreed to and policies are asserted. Once you have either >>> one, the enforcement of the two is fairly closely aligned. >>> Frank >>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 2:46 PM, James Odell wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> After yet another reading of the SOA-RA (Foundation?) and having >>> sat through the recent spate of meetings, I have the following >>> say about the reorganization of the SOA-RA: >>> >>> Overall, I think that the chapters and topics are sequenced in a >>> coherent and logical manner. Perhaps, it is because I read it >>> too many times now. But, I don't think so. >>> Also, I understand the need to minimize the amount of work >>> needed on the SOA-RA at this point in its development. We need >>> to get it released for public comment - without compromising >>> quality and understandability, of course. >>> Having said this, the only thing that bothers me enough to >>> suggest a reorganizational change is the area of Policies: >>> >>> 1) Policies, in general, are depicted in document far earlier >>> than they are finally addressed (by 40-50 pages). Since policies >>> - IMO - are an important ingredient in the SOA-RA, I would like >>> to see them addressed earlier. (My personal opinion is that >>> policies are not mentioned anywhere near the amount that they >>> should. For example, they are used in events, composition of >>> services, roles, and organizations. However, since this would >>> involve additions to the current document, I will not push this) >>> >>> 2) I strongly dislike grouping the entire topic with contracts. >>> While policies are used for contracts, Policy is a standalone >>> concept - which neither depends on nor is used solely with >>> Contract. (Even the OMG and W3C treat policies as a separate >>> notion.) Why is this reasonable? Because policies are used in a >>> variety of situations - only one of which is contracts. By >>> placing Policies in lock step with (and almost subordinate to) >>> with Contracts is not appropriate, IMO. 3) My suggestion: >>> separate Policies and Contracts into two distinct subsections >>> (e.g., 4.4 and 4.5). In short, this would provide clarity for >>> the notion of Policy and not require much change to the current >>> document. >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Jim >>> >> >> >>-- Rex Brooks >>President, CEO >>Starbourne Communications Design >>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>Berkeley, CA 94702 >>Tel: 510-898-0670 >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >><https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php>https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> > >-- >Be Yourself @ mail.com! >Choose From 200+ Email Addresses >Get a Free Account at <http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx>www.mail.com! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Laskey >MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > > > > >-- >Be Yourself @ mail.com! >Choose From 200+ Email Addresses >Get a Free Account at <http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx>www.mail.com! > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Ken Laskey > >MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > >7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 > >McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > >-- >Be Yourself @ mail.com! >Choose From 200+ Email Addresses >Get a Free Account at <http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx>www.mail.com! -- Rex Brooks President, CEO Starbourne Communications Design GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison Berkeley, CA 94702 Tel: 510-898-0670
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