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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram
On May 14, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Rex Brooks wrote: > I think Danny's point was that the predicted (expected, intended, > desired) RWE determines Willingness, but we don't yet have > distinctions for different kinds or aspects of RWE in the RAF. Ken's > diagrams and Dave's description of the latest DoDAF/DISA thinking > include that, but we haven't accepted that yet. > > The problem with these types: > positive-predicted-expected-intended-desired RWE v. > negative-unintended RWE is that the positive is acted upon based on > the projected future state while the negative is only apparent as > something that ought to habe been avoided AFTER actual RWE happens, > e.g. after state change. > The positive is acted upon on the projected future state while the negative is projected future state that is grounds for avoiding action or taking alternate mitigating action. > To use Ken's model of Trust-Risk with Frank's, Risk would now need to > be an Association Class to match Trust, Didn't I make both Trust and Risk association classes between the Trusting and the Trusted? > but the temporal aspects of > Trust and Risk are out of synch, except as past experience is used in > the assessment phase prior to reaching the (unincluded) Willingness > Threshold, triggering Willingness as currently modeled. If we just > say up front that we are not chained to synchronous context, we can > lose that problem. > 1. I agree that a note may be adequate. 2. My comment above would say they really aren't out of synch at all. This doesn't preclude a possible note on sequencing. > However, if we use Danny's diagram Ken's model of Risk would not > need to be changed because it seems to retain Trust as a simple Class > not an Association Class so Ken's model of Tuest-Risk would not need > to be changed. However, the question of whether, where and how to use > Risk remains. > I see Danny's diagram almost as a subset of mine, and I think the two can converge with a bit more discussion. Danny introduces State but explicitly not Shared State, but I didn't quite catch why or the intended distinction. Given RWE is in terms of Shared State, I feel just saying State begs for an explicit relationship to tie loose ends together. > I like Frank's diagram marginally better than Danny's (as it now > stands even with changing the dependency of Willingness on temporally > undifferentiated RWE) because I think State needs to be Shared State > for interaction to proceed. > > I understand Duane's comment now too. Let's send in some nanobots > next time we want to look under a big rock like Trust. > > ;-) > > Cheers, > Rex > > At 10:11 PM -0700 5/13/09, Francis McCabe wrote: >> Danny >> Your diagram seems to show that RWE determines willingness. You >> surely do not mean that? >> Frank >> On May 13, 2009, at 9:35 PM, Danny Thornton wrote: >> >>> Making a decision based on a belief that is contradicted by >>> evidence means a set of rules exist that are higher priority than >>> the attempt to create new rules based on evidence. In either case >>> there is a rule base (willingness) for the decision making process. >>> >>> In the opposite case, as in the con man, rules may override >>> preexisting rules based on evidence, even if the evidence is false. >>> >>> Trust does not have to be based on an action but is based on some >>> expected real world effect. Ken has stated this observation a >>> couple of times. A computing system may calculate that the >>> resources required to prevent negative consequences outweighs the >>> negative consequences. The negative consequences may be due to >>> actions or inaction. >>> >>> I've attached an updated version of Frank's diagram with these >>> views. I specifically did not give State the name of Shared State >>> and I specifically did not connect State to Real World Effect >>> (Duane's con man example and also the case of insanity). >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram >>>> To: "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org>, "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com >>>> > >>>> Cc: "Francis McCabe" <frankmccabe@mac.com>, >>>> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:31 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree with Ken (especially the >>>> part about not trusting Bettina to pick out a good action >>>> movie). I think that "evidence" is really >>>> "beliefs" or similar. Many people see >>>> evidence to the contrary but still believe their original >>>> notions. For example, your see evidence that >>>> contradicts your deep rooted beliefs. Most people >>>> still like to cling to their belief system. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> D >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/13/09 2:00 PM, "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not >>>> trust her to go to the video >>>> >>>> store and pick out a good action adventure movie. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Sr. Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems >>>> >>>> Chair - OASIS SOA RM Technical Committee >>>> >>>> Manager - Adobe LiveCycle ES Developers List >>>> >>>> Blog: http://technoracle.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> Twitter: duanechaos >>>> >>>> TV Show: http://www.duanesworldtv.org >>>> >>>> Band: http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> Trust >>> .png >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> >> >> >> Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1063.p7s ( / ) >> (017418A3) > > > -- > Rex Brooks > President, CEO > Starbourne Communications Design > GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison > Berkeley, CA 94702 > Tel: 510-898-0670 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that > generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: > https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Laskey MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 McLean VA 22102-7508
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