Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram

[Danny Thornton <danny_thornton2@yahoo.com>]

The reason I did not use shared state is because willingness can be determined based on private state that does not reflect the real world. A counter example to shared state would be an insane person whose actions continually have negative consequences because of the person's inability to measure and process the RWE of their actions and then incorporate this into their decision making process.  Even a psychologist may not be able to decipher the private state and decision processes of the insane person.  The private state example could equally apply to non-predictive computing systems or computing systems that do not predict RWE well.  

Danny

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org> wrote:

> From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram
> To: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
> Cc: "Francis McCabe" <frankmccabe@mac.com>, "Danny Thornton" <danny_thornton2@yahoo.com>, "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 8:39 AM
> 
> On May 14, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Rex Brooks wrote:
> 
> > I think Danny's point was that the predicted
> (expected, intended,
> > desired) RWE determines Willingness, but we don't yet
> have
> > distinctions for different kinds or aspects of RWE in
> the RAF. Ken's
> > diagrams and Dave's description of the latest
> DoDAF/DISA thinking
> > include that, but we haven't accepted that yet.
> > 
> > The problem with these types:
> > positive-predicted-expected-intended-desired RWE v.
> > negative-unintended RWE is that the positive is acted
> upon based on
> > the projected future state while the negative is only
> apparent as
> > something that ought to habe been avoided AFTER actual
> RWE happens,
> > e.g. after state change.
> > 
> 
> The positive is acted upon on the projected future state
> while the negative is projected future state that is grounds
> for avoiding action or taking alternate mitigating action.
> 
> > To use Ken's model of Trust-Risk with Frank's, Risk
> would now need to
> > be an Association Class to match Trust,
> 
> Didn't I make both Trust and Risk association classes
> between the Trusting and the Trusted?
> 
> > but the temporal aspects of
> > Trust and Risk are out of synch, except as past
> experience is used in
> > the assessment phase prior to reaching the
> (unincluded) Willingness
> > Threshold, triggering Willingness as currently
> modeled. If we just
> > say up front that we are not chained to synchronous
> context, we can
> > lose that problem.
> > 
> 1. I agree that a note may be adequate.
> 2. My comment above would say they really aren't out of
> synch at all.  This doesn't preclude a possible note on
> sequencing.
> 
> > However,  if we use Danny's diagram Ken's model
> of Risk would not
> > need to be changed because it seems to retain Trust as
> a simple Class
> > not an Association Class so Ken's model of Tuest-Risk
> would not need
> > to be changed. However, the question of whether, where
> and how to use
> > Risk remains.
> > 
> 
> I see Danny's diagram almost as a subset of mine, and I
> think the two can converge with a bit more discussion. 
> Danny introduces State but explicitly not Shared State, but
> I didn't quite catch why or the intended distinction. 
> Given RWE is in terms of Shared State, I feel just saying
> State begs for an explicit relationship to tie loose ends
> together.
> 
> > I like Frank's diagram marginally better than Danny's
> (as it now
> > stands even with changing the dependency of
> Willingness on temporally
> > undifferentiated RWE) because I think State needs to
> be Shared State
> > for interaction to proceed.
> > 
> > I understand Duane's comment now too. Let's send in
> some nanobots
> > next time we want to look under a big rock like
> Trust.
> > 
> > ;-)
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Rex
> > 
> > At 10:11 PM -0700 5/13/09, Francis McCabe wrote:
> >> Danny
> >> Your diagram seems to show that RWE determines
> willingness. You
> >> surely do not mean that?
> >> Frank
> >> On May 13, 2009, at 9:35 PM, Danny Thornton
> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Making a decision based on a belief that is
> contradicted by
> >>> evidence means a set of rules exist that are
> higher priority than
> >>> the attempt to create new rules based on
> evidence.  In either case
> >>> there is a rule base (willingness) for the
> decision making process.
> >>> 
> >>> In the opposite case, as in the con man, rules
> may override
> >>> preexisting rules based on evidence, even if
> the evidence is false.
> >>> 
> >>> Trust does not have to be based on an action
> but is based on some
> >>> expected real world effect.  Ken has
> stated this observation a
> >>> couple of times.  A computing system may
> calculate that the
> >>> resources required to prevent negative
> consequences outweighs the
> >>> negative consequences. The negative
> consequences may be due to
> >>> actions or inaction.
> >>> 
> >>> I've attached an updated version of Frank's
> diagram with these
> >>> views.  I specifically did not give State
> the name of Shared State
> >>> and I specifically did not connect State to
> Real World Effect
> >>> (Duane's con man example and also the case of
> insanity).
> >>> 
> >>> Danny
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com>
> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> From: Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram
> >>>> To: "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org>,
> "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
> >>>> Cc: "Francis McCabe" <frankmccabe@mac.com>,
> >>>> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org"
> <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>
> >>>> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:31 PM
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I agree with Ken (especially the
> >>>> part about not trusting Bettina to pick
> out a good action
> >>>> movie).  I think that "evidence" is
> really
> >>>> "beliefs" or similar.  Many people
> see
> >>>> evidence to the contrary but still believe
> their original
> >>>> notions.  For example, your see
> evidence that
> >>>> contradicts your deep rooted
> beliefs.  Most people
> >>>> still like to cling to their belief
> system.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> D
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 5/13/09 2:00 PM, "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org>
> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I do not
> >>>> trust her to go to the video
> >>>> 
> >>>> store and pick out a good action adventure
> movie.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sr. Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems
> >>>> 
> >>>> Chair - OASIS SOA RM Technical Committee
> >>>> 
> >>>> Manager - Adobe LiveCycle ES Developers
> List
> >>>> 
> >>>> Blog: http://technoracle.blogspot.com
> >>>> 
> >>>> Twitter: duanechaos
> >>>> 
> >>>> TV Show: http://www.duanesworldtv.org
> >>>> 
> >>>> Band: http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>
> <Trust.png>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1063.p7s
> (    /    ) (017418A3)
> > 
> > 
> > --Rex Brooks
> > President, CEO
> > Starbourne Communications Design
> > GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> > Berkeley, CA 94702
> > Tel: 510-898-0670
> > 
> >
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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