I support Boris in his comments.
First, "SOA services provide IT artifacts " is not true - SOA provides service-oriented artefacts unrelated to IT or Technology; these artefacts may be equally business or technical.
Second, we may not box SOA in IT, this will be the major mistake with long lasting consequences. The best way to deal with this topic, IMO, is to smooth differences between business services and SOA. In general, SOA includes business services in business and technical elements of these services provided by IT. This leads us to the next point.
Third, "Business is concerned only with business services and drives their
design, not development" - this is 100% true. Business value of SOA in its natural ability to compose independent services into new collaborations quickly and with minimal investments. These independent services may be manual, semi-automated or automated, this does not matter for SOA. That is, SOA is not about Technology , it is about service orientation that may include or not technical elements.
If we stop separating Business from Technology with will gain much more benefits as for the standard as for the whole industry.
Thanks,
- Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>, rexb@starbourne.com, "Lublinsky, Boris"
Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:58:07 -0500
I have no idea what this means:
"The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in
terms of its support of business services, which is its environment."
What is which environment?
Also:
" Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of
business outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that
facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and support the
business services."
SOA services is a complete misnomer. Infrastructure I can buy, but SOA
services?
And finally:
" Business needs drive the development of services delivered through IT,
which provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the
business value of SOA."
This has several problems:
1. Business is concerned only with business services and drives their
design, not development
2. What is the business value? What does this points to?
I think we are digressing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM
To: rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris
Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
[soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
Hi:
Please try this edit.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM
To: Lublinsky, Boris
Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
[soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
Very minor grammar correction, Boris,
I'm just a nit picker.
;)
Rex
Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
> I haven't seen people discussing my grammar so much lately. I am doing
> something wrong sorry.
> I am fine with managing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM
> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
> Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm being technically challenged at the moment with remote participation
>
> in overlapping meetings the latter of which isn't starting and
> the former of which appears to have ended early while I dropped
> off to attend the latter.Sheseh!
>
> Here's how I would correct Boris's grammar with one word-substitution:
> I
>
> don't want the concept of "orchestration" being confused with the use of
>
> "orchestrating" so I am changing that to "managing" which we don't spend
>
> much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just want to avoid anyone asking if
>
> we mean that "all business services must be delivered via
> orchestration."):
>
> Business drives the definition of business services aligned with
> enterprise business functionality and business processes,
> managing execution of these services, while IT defines
> infrastructure services,
> providing support across a wide range of business services and
> implements both types of services. Such collaboration allows
> stronger communications between both, by creating one-to-one
> mapping between business and IT artifacts.
>
> Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did not actually pick up
> Boris's additions and so didn't drop them, and Ken had one more
> addition he was considering, could we ask Ken to correct Boris's
> grammar, fold in Bob's slight rewording and add his piece? Then,
> perhaps Jeff and/or Jim could make the crisp differentiation
> between business services and SOA services or between business
> services and IT
> services
>
> Cheers,
> Rex
>
> Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote:
>
>> Didn't intend to drop Boris's additions...must of missed them.
>> I thought we were to start from where you left off, so that is
>> what I
>>
> did.
>
>> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working concurrently and the material crossed.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:10 AM
>> To: Lublinsky, Boris
>> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>
>> My task was to get the work rolling. I have minor quibbles with
>>
> correct
>
>> English grammar in Boris's additions, and I agree with Jeff that
>> the distinction between "business service' and "SOA service"
>> needs to be made. In general I think simpler is better, but as
>> long as the grammar is corrected, I'd be fine with Boris's
>> additions. I don't have any problems with Bob's minor rewording,
>> but i don't see why he dropped Boris's additions..
>>
>> I'll look at it again in the morning.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rex
>>
>> Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You through away all changes that were suggested after this initial
>>>
>>>
>> one?
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:41 PM
>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>>
>>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:16 PM
>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>>
>>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as an additional paragraph after
>>> the first paragraph. I include the first paragraph and the
>>> start of the current second paragraph here for the context:
>>>
>>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - An Ecosystem Perspective
>>>
>>> Many systems cannot be understood by a simple decomposition into
>>>
> parts
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> and subsystems -- in particular when there are many
>>> interactions between the parts. For example, a biological
>>> ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of plants, animals,
>>> and the hysical environment in which they live. Undestanding an
>>> ecosystem often requires a holistic perspective rather than one
>>> focusing on the
>>>
>>>
>> system's individual parts.
>>
>>
>>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the
>>> boundary between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT nor
>>> wholly Business,
>>>
>
>
>>> but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern
>>>
>
>
>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns must be
>>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes.
>>> Business
>>> needs drive the development of services delivered through IT,
>>> providing the capability that satisfies those needs. This is
>>> the business value of SOA.
>>>
>>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a network
>>> of independent services, machines, the people who operate,
>>> affect, use and govern those services as well as ...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Rex
>>>
>>> Rex Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Ken, Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the email you are looking for is your reply to
Frank:
>>>>
>
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives
>
>>>> /
>>>> 200906/msg00012.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, 2009, at 7:12 PM:
>>>>
>>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment behind this. We have
>>>> consistently identified SOA as being at the boundary between
>>>> business and IT. It
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly business but is of both worlds.
>>>>
>>>> That represents potentially one of SOA's greatest opportunities; and
>>>>
>
>
>>>> the source of its weaknesses: neither business nor IT can completely
>>>>
>
>
>>>> own/grok SOA.
>>>>
>>>> Frank"
>>>>
>>>> The email referenced above contains the most or all of the thread "Are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> we being ignored?"
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure we would help ourselves if we say more than "The
>>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the boundary
>>>> between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT nor wholly
>>>> Business, but is
>>>>
>
>
>>>> of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern
>>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns MUST be
>>>>
> accommodated
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes."
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Rex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Laskey, Ken wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This is a reminder that this week we are scheduled to discuss
>>>>>
> adding
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA and business. Below is text suggested
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is another email from Boris with a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> idea that would need to be condensed and
>>>>>
> added/substituted/combined.
>
>>>>> Let's get the discussion far enough along that we can bring this to
>>>>>
>
>
>>>>> (close to) closure by the end of Wednesday's call.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember there was an email where Frank wrote something very
>>>>>
> crisp
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> on this subject that I replied was exactly what we needed to say.
>>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea when that email thread occurred. If
>>>>> someone could find it, I think it would be a good contribution to the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, two immediate things come to mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of the views and this is not a view
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it fits after section 1.2, possibly as
>>>>> another short section.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what the phrase "the similarity of
>>>>> the principles of the Value Networks business model" means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey
>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax:
>>>>> 703-983-1379
>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Sent:
>>>>> Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM
>>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> I join Francis and Boris in suggestion that SOA RA's Introduction
>>>>> would benefit from adding a couple of paragraphs on the
>>>>> business aspects of SOA positioned across Business and IT.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the previous message I composed a few words for a small section
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> this topic and propose to discuss them as an initial draft during the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> next (or following) Telecom. Proposed text may be found in the middle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> of this message chain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org Date: 8
>>>>>
> Sep
>
>>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business" is what I write
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let me propose a strawman for this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> text:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the Service Oriented Architecture
>>>>>
>>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture realizes principles of the concept
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> service orientation in the sphere of architecture. The architecture
>>>>>
>
>
>>>>> in the organisation comprises both business architecture and
>>>>> technical architecture of the systems [ref. to TOGAF 9.0].
>>>>> While SOA-based systems address aspects of the technical
>>>>> architecture,
>>>>>
> the
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> similarity of the principles of the Value Networks business model and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a conceptual bridge between
>>>>> corporate Business and IT.
>>>>>
>>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new possibilities for Business and IT
>>>>>
> to
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> construct service-oriented customer-centric convergent solutions
>>>>>
> for
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> business problems. Service orientation enables operational
>>>>> and technical flexibility, which contributes to business
>>>>> efficiency the
>>>>>
>
>
>>>>> great deal. The Service Orientation concept has the potential
>>>>> not only to align IT with Business, but also to align the
>>>>> entire
>>>>>
> company
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> with the market dynamics.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the ideas in this writing are acceptable, I will work on the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> wording.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> - Michael Poulin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Francis McCabe To:
>>>>> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org RA"
>>>>>
> <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>
>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think that a paragraph or two in
>>>>> the introduction positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>>>> business could be very useful. It is also pretty faithful to
>>>>> the RAF!
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. The concept of interaction in the RM referred *everything*
>>>>> involved in interacting with services. For the RA we have to
>>>>>
> unpack
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> that some. This is the foundation for the multi-leveled concept of
>>>>>
>
>
>>>>> joint action. This should go in Section 3.1.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security diagram should be updated
>>>>> and incorporated.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. The trust and willingness stuff should go in.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. It would be good if we could go through the text bolding defined
>>>>>
>
>
>>>>> concepts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>>> -
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date
>>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Rex Brooks
>>> President, CEO
>>> Starbourne Communications Design
>>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>> Berkeley, CA 94702
>>> Tel: 510-898-0670
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> - To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS
>>> TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs
>>> in OASIS
>>> at:
>>>
>>>
> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>
>>>
>>> The information contained in this communication may be CONFIDENTIAL
>>>
>>>
>> and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If
>> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
>> any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
>> communication, or any
>>
> of
>
>> its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
>> communication in error, please notify the sender and
>> delete/destroy
>>
> the
>
>> original message and any copy of it from your computer or paper
files.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Rex Brooks
>> President, CEO
>> Starbourne Communications Design
>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>> Berkeley, CA 94702
>> Tel: 510-898-0670
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC
>> that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in
>> OASIS at:
>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.ph
>> p
>>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-898-0670
The information contained in this communication may be CONFIDENTIAL
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If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
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