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Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]


Just shows that putting two or more IT architects in the same room can
lead to four or more terms for the same concept...ARRGH!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 4:22 PM
To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin;
soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
[soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]

I do not have any strong objections.

'Composable' means to me that the service may be composed; the question
is - composed by what and how this corresponds to 'independent'?
'Composite' or 'aggregate' (as Ken pointed once) is the service, which
is composed already by other services, which comprises other services,
i.e. it is not independent. This is what I tried to "EmFasis" :-)

You, folks, decide.

- Michael


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
> To: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, "Mike Poulin"
<mpoulin@usa.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
[soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:01:34 -0500
> 
> 
> Mike, I like the sentence.  Boris, I think that "composable services"
is
> the correct term.  I've heard many "experts" and "gurus" use the term
> and concept since at least 2003 and seems to me to put the "EmFasis on
> the rite Silobbal", as my dad would say.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:50 PM
> To: Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris;
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> 
> Composable?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:27 PM
> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris;
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> 
> Bob,
>   this is the phrase:
> 
>  From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a network of
> independent services, machines, the people who operate, affect, use
and
> govern those services as well as ...
> 
> 
> I propose to say: "...a network of independent and composite services,
> machines, the..."
> 
> - Michael
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
> > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris"
> <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:40:28 -0500
> >
> >
> > There was one sentence that you sent that I could not make head or
> tail
> > of as I noted.  Otherwise, I thought I had incorporated all of your
> > comments
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:31 PM
> > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris;
> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> >
> > I am afraid, I am lost. I do not see some of the crucial changes I
> > advocated for and you agreed to accommodate:
> >
> >
> > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in
> > terms of its support of business services."
> > - MP - great!
> >
> > "Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of
> business
> > outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate
> > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the business
> > services."
> > - MP - my proposal: 'Business services provide business
functionality
> in
> > pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts facilitate
> > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the business
> > services.'
> >
> > "Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of
> both
> > worlds."
> > - MP - great! You commented: 'This doesn't make sense to me. It is
not
> > connected to SOA in anyway' but left the statement. I am for having
> this
> > statement as it is (it is not my text but very right one IMO)
> >
> > "Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern, and manage this SOA
> > Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must accommodate both sets of concerns
> for
> > to fulfill its purpose and potential."
> > - MP - great!
> >
> > "Business needs to drive the development of services delivered
through
> > processes and its supporting IT, which provides the capability that
> > satisfies those needs. This is the business value of SOA."
> > - MP - development of services is not necessary delivered through
> > processes and supporting IT. This is why my proposal is:
> >   'Business needs to drive the development of services, which
provides
> > the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
value
> of
> > SOA.'
> > or
> >   'Business needs to drive the development of services delivered
> through
> > Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies those
> > needs. This is the business value of SOA.'
> >
> > (i.e. none Business or IT , or both; SOA is in between them)
> >
> >
> > Thus, my variant of the text looks like this:
> >
> > The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in
> terms
> > of its support of business services. Business services provide
> business
> > functionality in pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts
> > facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and support
the
> > business services. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly
> > Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely
> own,
> > govern, and manage this SOA Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must
> > accommodate both sets of concerns for to fulfill its purpose and
> > potential. Business needs to drive the development of services,
which
> > provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the
> business
> > value of SOA.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
> > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris"
> > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:56:23 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > > Try this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:31 AM
> > > To: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Boris has reminded me one thing: in the paragraph following the
two
> > > paragraphs we are discussing now we say something like 'SOA is a
> > network
> > > of independent services...' I would modify this phrase a bit
saying
> > > something like 'SOA is a network of independent and composite
> > > services...'
> > >
> > > Sorry, I did not mention this earlier.
> > >
> > > This is all what I wanted to say about SOA and Buz.
> > >
> > > - Michael
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lublinsky, Boris"
> > > To: "Mike Poulin" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:04:35 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > > I tend to agree with Mike/jeff
> > > See below
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:15 AM
> > > To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > Importance: High
> > >
> > > I believe service orientation has the enormous potential to become
> the
> > > basic business operational model and SOA will be the basis of the
> > > Business Architecture.
> > >
> > > Since we do not have time for this discussion now, let's return to
> our
> > > text.
> > >
> > > B.L. Moreover, as I re read the text I am realizing more and more
> that
> > > this is not so much about SOA but mostly about ESB. I am of course
> > over
> > > simplifying, but hopefully you got the jest. We managed to leap
frog
> > > business architecture and servicizing the enterprise and jump
> directly
> > > into the issues of service interaction - ecosystem. This is fine,
> but
> > > who is going to live in this wonderful ecosystem.
> > >
> > >
> > > The only thing I hope to set in the RA standard is an open door to
> the
> > > Business opportunity of SOA instead of locking it in IT.
> > >
> > > This means I vote for enough 'ambiguity' in the text that would
> allow
> > > anybody to go with SOA in both - technical and business -
> directions,
> > if
> > > needed.
> > >
> > > B.L. Fair enough. Lets create the door, but may be, just may be
open
> > it
> > > up slightly for the next review. This is why I think, the text
under
> > > discussion, does not belong in the ecosystem, but rather above it.
> We
> > > talk about business/IT alignment and then define ecosystem
> > >
> > > The following is my modifications to the text that together aim
only
> > one
> > > statement: "SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is
of
> > both
> > > worlds." Particularly:
> > >
> > > a) I agree in full with:
> > > <
> > > components and subsystems. They must be understood within their
> > context
> > > or environment; particularly, when there are many interactions
among
> > the
> > > parts. For example, a biological ecosystem is a self-sustaining
> > > association of plants, animals, and the physical environment in
> which
> > > they live. Understanding an ecosystem often requires this holistic
> > > perspective of the system and its environment rather than one
> focusing
> > > on the system's individual parts.>>
> > >
> > > b) I DISagree with << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document
> > must
> > > be understood in terms of its support of business services, which
is
> > its
> > > environment.>>
> > > My proposal is this:
> > > << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood
> in
> > > terms of its support of business services.>>
> > >
> > > B.L. See comment above
> > >
> > > c) I DISagree with << Business services provide business
> functionality
> > > in pursuit of the business outcome; while SOA services provide IT
> > > artifacts that facilitate connectivity of functional units to
> realize
> > > and support the business services. Therefore, SOA is neither
wholly
> IT
> > > nor wholly Business, but is of both worlds. >>
> > > My proposal is this:
> > > <
> > > outcome, together with its technical realization and support
> provided
> > by
> > > Information Technology. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor
> wholly
> > > Business, but is of both worlds.>>
> > >
> > > B.L. How about:
> > > << SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of both
> > worlds.
> > > Without involvement of the business, defining service
functionality
> > > based on the enterprise business model and aligned with the
> enterprise
> > > business processes, SOA can't fulfill the promise of business/IT
> > > alignment and support for flexible, process-driven enterprise.
> Without
> > > involvement of IT, implementing SOA ecosystem, supporting flexible
> > > service deployment, interactions, monitoring and management SOA
> can't
> > > fulfill the promise of scalable, maintainable IT.>>
> > >
> > > d) I DISagree with << Business needs drive the development of
> services
> > > delivered through IT, which provides the capability that satisfies
> > those
> > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>>
> > > My proposal is:
> > > << Business needs to drive the development of services, which
> provides
> > > the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
> value
> > of
> > > SOA.>>
> > > or
> > > << Business needs to drive the development of services delivered
> > through
> > > Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies
those
> > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>>
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > - Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" To: "Mike Poulin" , "Lublinsky,
> > Boris"
> > > , rexb@starbourne.com
> > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:30:41 -0500
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are trying to get to the same concept, but really what is
being
> > > > discussed is a cultural paradigm shift. In my view, the
execution
> > > > context is the technical context within which the service
> components
> > > > exist and within in which they are executed as enablers and
> support
> > > for
> > > > the process. The service components are the parts and
> subassemblies.
> > > > The process flow, which is part of the execution context, as
> defined
> > > by
> > > > the orchestration or choreography (both of which have business
> rules
> > > > engines to ensure that policies/standards/business rules/etc.
are
> > > > followed).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Business process modeling as instantiated by the assembled of
the
> > SOA
> > > > service components, with the associated business rule, links the
> > > system
> > > > to the business processes. Provided that the business processes
> > serve
> > > > the goals or objectives or the business (that is provides value
to
> > the
> > > > business) then the tools as instantiated in the SOA service
> > multiplies
> > > > the effectiveness of the process.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The cultural shift involves the fact that when business
challenges
> > or
> > > > opportunities arise, the business processes and SOA supporting
> > > services
> > > > can meet those challenge because SOA enable agile systems. I
> define
> > > > agility as "successful response to unexpected challenges and
> > > > opportunities." BTW, this is the definition of the Agility Forum
> > > (circa
> > > > 1990) associated with Lehigh University (that is Nagel and his
> group
> > > > that wrote the book on the agile enterprise). Currently, the
> > > monolithic
> > > > architecture of most ERP-like systems do not allow agility,
while
> > > > functional architecture place emphasis on optimizing for the
> > function;
> > > > creating silos. There is an axiom in Systems Engineering that
> > > > optimizing the subsystems, sub-optimizes the system. SOA enables
> > both
> > > > optimization and agility of the system, but requires mapping of
> the
> > > > system to the organization's processes as the price
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I could and have said a great deal more, but I think that is
> enough.
> > > > The linkage is there for anyone to get the maximum value out of
> the
> > > SOA
> > > > and both the business processes and the composite applications
> > > (process
> > > > assembled service components???) or whatever operating in the
> > > execution
> > > > context, must enable and support the processes. As the processes
> > > change
> > > > in response to challenges and opportunities, both the processes
> and
> > > the
> > > > composite application must respond quickly and successfully.
This
> is
> > > > not the way it is done now, and that is the cultural change that
> is
> > > > needed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 PM
> > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris;
rexb@starbourne.com
> > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert,
> > > >
> > > > as we know SOA defines Execution Context. Since we never defined
> > what
> > > it
> > > > includes, I suggest (and promote this opinion) that EC includes
> > > Business
> > > > EC and Technical EC. Business services cannot be 'the
environment
> of
> > > the
> > > > SOA Ecosystem' because it is included into SOA. Business EC
> defines
> > > > business execution policies and Technical EC defines technical
> > > execution
> > > > policies. SOA Ecosystem comprises both business and technical
> > realms.
> > > >
> > > > Phrase "while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate
> > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the
> business
> > > > services."" has a problem because SOA service does not necessary
> > > > "facilitate connectivity of functional units". For instance,a
> > > > self-contained stand-alone business technical service realises
its
> > own
> > > > business function or feature w/o joining with other "functional
> > > units".
> > > > Plus, SOA Service may or may not contain any IT artefacts. Time
> when
> > > SOA
> > > > was considered a pure technical thing is gone (and for good).
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you on "The value of IT is the same as any other
> tool".
> > > > This is why I think that statement " Business needs drive the
> > > > development of services delivered through IT, which provides the
> > > > capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
value
> of
> > > > SOA" requires corrections. Development of services is not
> necessary
> > > > delivered through IT, it may be purely manual business service
and
> > > many
> > > > services of such nature exist.
> > > >
> > > > Based on my discussion in several Business Architecture groups
on
> > the
> > > > Web, any business process in Business may be defined as business
> > > service
> > > > with or without technical component. Implementation of the
> business
> > > > service, as we know, is not that important for service-oriented
> > > > Architecture.
> > > >
> > > > If we state that SOA positions BETWEEN Business and IT, we MAY
NOT
> > > > attribute it to IT only and confront it with the business
service.
> > > This
> > > > is illogical.
> > > >
> > > > - Michael
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)"
> > > > To: "Lublinsky, Boris" , rexb@starbourne.com
> > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com,
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:49 -0500
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > See below
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:58 AM
> > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky,
Boris
> > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea what this means:
> > > >
> > > > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood
> in
> > > > terms of its support of business services, which is its
> > environment."
> > > >
> > > > What is which environment?
> > > > Business services are the environment of the SOA Ecosystem.
> > > >
> > > > Also:
> > > > " Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of
> > > > business outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that
> > > > facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and
support
> > the
> > > > business services."
> > > >
> > > > SOA services is a complete misnomer. Infrastructure I can buy,
but
> > SOA
> > > > services?
> > > > I disagree with that. The infrastructure provides nothing except
> an
> > > > operating context. Only when SOA Service (which in my
> understanding
> > is
> > > > a composite application with contractual obligations) provide
any
> > > value
> > > > to the customer.
> > > >
> > > > And finally:
> > > > " Business needs drive the development of services delivered
> through
> > > IT,
> > > > which provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This
is
> > the
> > > > business value of SOA."
> > > >
> > > > This has several problems:
> > > > 1. Business is concerned only with business services and drives
> > their
> > > > design, not development 2. What is the business value? What does
> > this
> > > > points to?
> > > >
> > > > My understanding of the term development is that it includes
> design,
> > > but
> > > > if you want to change it...The value of IT is the same as any
> other
> > > > tool, to multiple the value of the process.
> > > > Adam Smith pointed this out in Chapter 1 of Book 1 of the Wealth
> of
> > > > Nations. This is a point lost on IT as this comment
demonstrates.
> > > >
> > > > I think we are digressing.
> > > >
> > > > I hope not.
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM
> > > > To: rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris
> > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > Please try this edit.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM
> > > > To: Lublinsky, Boris
> > > > Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
> > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
> > > >
> > > > Very minor grammar correction, Boris,
> > > >
> > > > I'm just a nit picker.
> > > >
> > > > ;)
> > > > Rex
> > > >
> > > > Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
> > > > > I haven't seen people discussing my grammar so much lately. I
am
> > > doing
> > > >
> > > > > something wrong sorry.
> > > > > I am fine with managing
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM
> > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
> > > > > Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; > > > 
> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
business]
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Folks,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm being technically challenged at the moment with remote
> > > > participation
> > > > >
> > > > > in overlapping meetings the latter of which isn't starting 
> > > and > > the former of which appears to have ended early while I 
> > > dropped > > off to attend the latter.Sheseh!
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's how I would correct Boris's grammar with one
> > > word-substitution:
> > > >
> > > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > don't want the concept of "orchestration" being confused with
> the
> > > use
> > > > of
> > > > >
> > > > > "orchestrating" so I am changing that to "managing" which we
> don't
> > > > spend
> > > > >
> > > > > much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just want to avoid anyone
> > > asking
> > > > if
> > > > >
> > > > > we mean that "all business services must be delivered via
> > > > > orchestration."):
> > > > >
> > > > > Business drives the definition of business services aligned 
> > > > with > enterprise business functionality and business 
> > processes, > > > managing execution of these services, while IT 
> > defines > > > infrastructure services,
> > > >
> > > > > providing support across a wide range of business services 
> > > and > > implements both types of services. Such collaboration > 
> > allows > > stronger communications between both, by creating > 
> > one-to-one > > mapping between business and IT artifacts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did not actually 
> > pick > up > > Boris's additions and so didn't drop them, and Ken 
> > had one > more > > addition he was considering, could we ask Ken 
> > to correct > > Boris's > grammar, fold in Bob's slight rewording 
> > and add his > > piece? Then, > perhaps Jeff and/or Jim could make 
> > the crisp > > differentiation > between business services and SOA 
> > services or > > between business > services and IT
> > > >
> > > > > services
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Rex
> > > > >
> > > > > Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Didn't intend to drop Boris's additions...must of missed > 
> > them. > I >> thought we were to start from where you left off, so 
> > > that is > >> what I
> > > > >>
> > > > > did.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working concurrently and the
> > material
> > > > crossed.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Bob
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:10 AM
> > > > >> To: Lublinsky, Boris
> > > > >> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; 
> > > >> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
> > > > >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
> business]
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My task was to get the work rolling. I have minor quibbles
with
> > > > >>
> > > > > correct
> > > > >
> > > > >> English grammar in Boris's additions, and I agree with 
> > Jeff > > that >> the distinction between "business service' and 
> > "SOA > > service" >> needs to be made. In general I think simpler 
> > is > > better, but as >> long as the grammar is corrected, I'd be 
> > fine > > with Boris's >> additions. I don't have any problems 
> > with Bob's > > minor rewording, >> but i don't see why he dropped 
> > Boris's > > additions..
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'll look at it again in the morning.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >> Rex
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> You through away all changes that were suggested after this
> > > initial
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> one?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
[mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
> > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:41 PM
> > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
> > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
[was:
> > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
> business]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... -----Original
> Message-----
> > > > >>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:16 PM
> > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
> > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
[was:
> > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
> business]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as an additional paragraph 
> > > > after >>> the first paragraph. I include the first paragraph 
> > and > > the >>> start of the current second paragraph here for 
> > the > > context:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - An Ecosystem Perspective
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Many systems cannot be understood by a simple decomposition
> into
> > > > >>>
> > > > > parts
> > > > >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> and subsystems -- in particular when there are many >>> > 
> > > interactions between the parts. For example, a biological >>> > 
> > > ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of plants, animals, 
> > > > >>> and the hysical environment in which they live. 
> > Undestanding > > an >>> ecosystem often requires a holistic 
> > perspective rather > > than one >>> focusing on the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> system's individual parts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the 
> > > >>> > boundary between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT 
> > > nor >>> > wholly Business,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>> but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely
own,
> > > > govern
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns must 
> > > be > >>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its > 
> > purposes. > >>> Business
> > > >
> > > > >>> needs drive the development of services delivered through 
> > > IT, > >>> providing the capability that satisfies those needs. 
> > > This is > >>> the business value of SOA.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a > 
> > network > of >>> independent services, machines, the people who > 
> > operate, > affect, >>> use and govern those services as well as > 
> > ...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > >>> Rex
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Rex Brooks wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Hi Ken, Everyone,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I believe that the email you are looking for is your reply
to
> > > > Frank:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives
> > > > >
> > > > >>>> /
> > > > >>>> 200906/msg00012.html
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, 2009, at 7:12 PM:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment behind this. We have 
> > >>>> > > consistently identified SOA as being at the boundary 
> > between > >>>> > business and IT. It
> > > >
> > > > >>>> is
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly business but is of both
worlds.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> That represents potentially one of SOA's greatest
> > opportunities;
> > > > and
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>> the source of its weaknesses: neither business nor IT can
> > > > completely
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>> own/grok SOA.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Frank"
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The email referenced above contains the most or all of the
> > thread
> > > > "Are
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> we being ignored?"
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I'm not sure we would help ourselves if we say more than 
> > > > "The >>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies 
> > the > > boundary >>>> between Business and IT. It is neither 
> > wholly IT > > nor wholly >>>> Business, but is
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>> of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, 
> > > > govern >>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of 
> > concerns > > MUST be
> > > > >>>>
> > > > > accommodated
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>> Rex
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Laskey, Ken wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> This is a reminder that this week we are scheduled to
> discuss
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > adding
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA and business. Below is text
> > > > suggested
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is another email from Boris
with
> a
> > > lot
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> idea that would need to be condensed and
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > added/substituted/combined.
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> Let's get the discussion far enough along that we can
bring
> > this
> > > > to
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> (close to) closure by the end of Wednesday's call.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I remember there was an email where Frank wrote something
> very
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > crisp
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> on this subject that I replied was exactly what we needed
to
> > > say.
> > > > >>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea when that email thread
> occurred.
> > > If
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> someone could find it, I think it would be a good
> contribution
> > > to
> > > > the
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> discussion.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, two immediate things come
to
> > > mind.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of the views and this is
not
> a
> > > view
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it fits after section 1.2,
> possibly
> > > as
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> another short section.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what the phrase "the > 
> > similarity > of >>>>> the principles of the Value Networks > 
> > business model" > means.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Ken
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> ------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey
> > > > >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
> > > > >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax:
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> 703-983-1379
> > > > >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Sent: > 
> > >>>>> > Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM
> > > > >>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > >>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between
IT
> > and
> > > > business
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Hi Folks,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I join Francis and Boris in suggestion that SOA RA's
> > > Introduction
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> would benefit from adding a couple of paragraphs on the 
> > > > >>>>> business aspects of SOA positioned across Business and 
> > IT.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> In the previous message I composed a few words for a small
> > > section
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> on
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> this topic and propose to discuss them as an initial draft
> > > during
> > > > the
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> next (or following) Telecom. Proposed text may be found in
> the
> > > > middle
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> of this message chain.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Any suggestions?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> - Michael
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Date:
> > 8
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > Sep
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business" is
> what
> > I
> > > > write
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let me propose a strawman
for
> > > this
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>> text:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the Service Oriented Architecture
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture realizes principles of the
> > > concept
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> service orientation in the sphere of architecture. The
> > > > architecture
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> in the organisation comprises both business 
> > architecture > > and >>>>> technical architecture of the systems 
> > [ref. to TOGAF > > 9.0]. >>>>> While SOA-based systems address 
> > aspects of the > > technical >>>>> architecture,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> similarity of the principles of the Value Networks
business
> > > model
> > > > and
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a conceptual bridge between 
> > > > >>>>> corporate Business and IT.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new possibilities for Business
> and
> > > IT
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > to
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> construct service-oriented customer-centric convergent
> > solutions
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > for
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> business problems. Service orientation enables > 
> > operational > >>>>> and technical flexibility, which contributes 
> > > to business > >>>>> efficiency the
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> great deal. The Service Orientation concept has the > > 
> > potential >>>>> not only to align IT with Business, but also to > 
> > > align the >>>>> entire
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > company
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> with the market dynamics.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> If the ideas in this writing are acceptable, I will work
on
> > the
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>> wording.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>> - Michael Poulin
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> From: Francis McCabe To: "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
RA"
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 -0700
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think that a paragraph or two 
> > > in > >>>>> the introduction positioning SOA on the cusp between 
> > > IT and > >>>>> business could be very useful. It is also pretty 
> > > faithful > to >>>>> the RAF!
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 2. The concept of interaction in the RM referred > > 
> > *everything* >>>>> involved in interacting with services. For the 
> > > > RA we have to
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > unpack
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>> that some. This is the foundation for the multi-leveled
> > concept
> > > of
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> joint action. This should go in Section 3.1.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security diagram should be > 
> > updated > >>>>> and incorporated.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 4. The trust and willingness stuff should go in.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 5. It would be good if we could go through the text
bolding
> > > > defined
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> concepts.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>> -----------
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next]
--
> > > [Date
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Rex Brooks
> > > > >>> President, CEO
> > > > >>> Starbourne Communications Design
> > > > >>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> > > > >>> Berkeley, CA 94702
> > > > >>> Tel: 510-898-0670
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > >
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >
> > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The information contained in this communication may be
> > > CONFIDENTIAL
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named
> above.
> > > If
> > > >
> > > > >> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby 
> > notified > > that >> any dissemination, distribution, or copying 
> > of this >> > > communication, or any
> > > > >>
> > > > > of
> > > > >
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paper
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> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Rex Brooks
> > > > >> President, CEO
> > > > >> Starbourne Communications Design
> > > > >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> > > > >> Berkeley, CA 94702
> > > > >> Tel: 510-898-0670
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >>
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> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Rex Brooks
> > > > President, CEO
> > > > Starbourne Communications Design
> > > > GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> > > > Berkeley, CA 94702
> > > > Tel: 510-898-0670
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The information contained in this communication may be
> CONFIDENTIAL
> > > and
> > > > is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If
> you
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> > > > --
> > > >
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> > > > 20>
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